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What Charging Connector? J1772 "Universal"

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by efusco, Apr 25, 2010.

  1. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    Or will they use the same connector as on the Roadster? I, for one, would definately vote for the universal if we can have only one plug, or, perhaps, it would be better to have 2 plugs so those who currently own a Roadster won't have to get a different charger and Tesla can continue selling their current charger. It would be nice, however, to be able to pull up to one of the "Leaf" chargers that the EV Project will begin installing and plug right in w/o need for adapters and such.
     
  2. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #2 TEG, Apr 25, 2010
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
    It was implied that the Roadster would get some sort of J1772 adapter cable someday so that they can plug into the new generation of J1772 charge stations starting to be rollled out. I have no idea when such a cable will be available nor if it will be free. If it isn't free then some Roadster owners may prefer not to buy one and would prefer that the Roadster specific charge spots be left using the existing Roadster cable. My guess is that Model S will have J1772 instead of the current Roadster Tesla proprietary connector.

    Other EV owners have been through this before. For instance, my old Avcon based RangerEV doesn't connect to new public Tesla charge stations. If both Tesla and RangerEVs have adapter cables provided to go to new style (e.g.: Leaf) J1772 then we both could share the same charge spots. If someone doesn't give me an Avcon to new J1772 adapter then I would prefer they leave the existing Avcon charge spots intact, but there will be pressure by new vehicle owners (such as Leaf) to convert legacy Avcon (and Tesla proprietary) spots to new style J1772.

    Companies make money from selling to new customers and not so much from trying to support legacy customers on old standards. I suspect the current Tesla connectors will become a "legacy stanard" at some point and the existing spots will slowly get converted/replaced and so the pressure will mount to get an adapter cable.

    This is like what happens with other industries.
    The original HD MPEG2 satellite boxes I bought could receive fewer and fewer HD channels as all the new ones were in MPEG4. They slowly converted existing channels to MPEG4 as well until the box could only receive 2 HD channels. Basically you get less and less support until you feel enough pressure to upgrade.
    Old Analog cell phones had shrinking coverage areas slowly forcing people to upgrade.
     
  3. Tommy

    Tommy Member

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    I would like to install a home charger this year to get the fed's 2k (up to) tax credit; the credit is due to expire the end of 2010. Which plug type the Model S uses is an issue I hope Tesla addresses this summer. I don't want to be limited to a proprietary plug either on the road or in my home. (well actually in my garage):wink:
     
  4. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    #4 vfx, Apr 25, 2010
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
    I would agree that Tesla will go with the J1772. I have seen the Fisker, Nissan and Volt all with the J1772 built in. The problem is that Clipper Creek will be selling the J1772 this year (now taking reservations) but I think they are only doing Level 1!

    To my knowledge no maker has even made the tooling for the Level 2 J1772.
     
  5. SByer

    SByer '08 #383

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    Looking at the Clipper Creek product brochure for their CS line (the J1772 standard plug line), it goes all the way up to 240V/80A (needing a 100A breaker). As far as I can tell, everything is the same between the CS and TS lines except the physical connector.
     
  6. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Yes, from what I am hearing, the connector is the issue. Larger wire diameter possibly different materials and fasteners.
    Making all new steel molds for production runs is in the thousands and after a cost saving massive production run it may easily be in the 10s of thousands. And from what I understand, no maker has made that investment to produce the higher rated connector. When you think about it, at least for now, how many would sell?
     
  7. ChrisC

    ChrisC see signature

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    FYI the J1772 connector is starting to ship out from the manufacturer(s) right now (April-May) so I expect we'll start to see all these fine products (e.g. Tesla adapter cables) finally appear shortly thereafter.
     
  8. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    :tongue:
     
  9. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    The future of charging has begun.

    Check Woodland CA on EV Charger maps.

    Find Woodland CA

    No mention here but this is the comment in the Precisifier
     
  10. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    ... as long as we're off topic, an (un)related question: will it be possible to charge the Model S from the ClipperCreek unit I have for the Roadster?

    Doug
     
  11. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    I don't believe they've decided what charge plug the Model S will have. Ideally, it should be the J1772 standard that is appearing on the new chargers but we probably won't know until next year sometime (just a guess).
     
  12. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    They would be quite daft if they went with anything but a J1772. By the time the S comes out there will be 20,000 more EVs with J1772's on them. Right now there are about 2 to 3000 total with 4 kinds of connectors.
     
  13. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    I agree. If they stick with the Tesla plug, they are asking for the car not to be a big success I think. A mass market car needs a mass market plug.
     
  14. Jaff

    Jaff Active Member

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    I asked the same question to a TM support person this week Doug...I want to plan ahead to run the proper wires...once and only once.

    I was told that your existing HPC unit will work when charging your Model S.

     
  15. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    I think there's a very good chance of the AC charging being 80A J1772. It would be good if they offer a Roadster HPC adapter too.
     
  16. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    I would think that would only be true with an adapter and/or a retrofit.
     
  17. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    Yes, they will have to supply an adapter. Hopefully there will be a Roadster retrofit by then.
     
  18. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    Wouldn't it be relatively simple to have the socket in the car actually be the adapter? A swappable socket seems to me to be the only solution. Without the Mennekes plug, I don't think Model S will be competitive in Europe.
     
  19. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    I also would like for the Model S to have the Mennekes plug (and 3 phase charging) in Europe. However the European/Mennekes model prefers that people have their own charging cables, so it's easy to have a cable with Mennekes on one side and Yazaki (or Tesla) on the other. What connector will the Leaf, i-MiEV, or Volt/Ampera have in Europe?
     
  20. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    #20 eledille, Oct 6, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2010
    I thought the Yazaki plug would not take three phase. If I'm wrong, all I need is a cable, and I'd be happy. Please tell me I'm wrong :)

    Three phase support is the all-important issue. Without it, the French and German cars will charge at three times the speed of a Tesla from the most common charge points.

    I don't know about the Leaf or the Volt. The i-MiEV currently only supports DC charging and 230V, 16A here in Norway, I believe. But these are made by Japanese and US auto makers, who are used to single phase distribution. The European auto makers all seem to want three phase - sometimes I think they must be quietly laughing to themselves, they're going to end up with the entire home market to themselves, and still easily be able to support the Japanese and US standards.

    Assume Tesla create their own version 2 connector that supports three phase. In cars destined for the US market, they install the Yazaki socket the customer will use by plugging it into the internal Tesla socket and fastening it. It is situated outside of their own connector, hiding it from view. Cars for the European market would have the Mennekes plug installed instead. A car can be converted to any socket type by unscrewing the panel that the outer socket is mounted on and installing the other socket.

    As everyone agrees on the signaling protocol, this should be easy to do and would be future proof - or am I missing something?
     

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