What devices do you have UPS connected even though you have a PowerWall?

[tomuo]

With a Powerwall, there's going to be a sub-second loss of power when it switches over.
Very few computer equipment that doesn't already have an internal battery can ride that out, so I'm guessing that most people still have small capacity UPSes on critical devices in their house.
Even more so if that device is plugged into a circuit that you realize isn't on the powerwall backed-up side (grr).

How many UPSes do you still have?
I'm down to 2 for my network stuff, but thinking I still need two more. Need to to be able to neuter the on-battery beep tone too.

 

[gpez]

Everything in my home except high wattage circuits (L2 EV charger, AC, electric dryer, and oven) is backed up so anything that is sensitive to blips is on the Powerwall.

I have 5 UPSes throughout the house because I'm an addict.
- 1500VA for my PC and monitor
- 1000VA for the networking closet (switch, home automation hub, NVR)
- 1000VA for the Xbox and TV
- 650VA for the IP security cameras
- 650VA for the other Xbox and TV

** Edit: forgot the FIOS ONT is on a battery too... (not a UPS per-se but I put in an SLA which it has a spot for).

 

[tomuo]

How old is your FIOS ONT? Mine has a battery, but specifically it only powers the POTS connection during an outage.

There's a workaround documented somewhere that you can flip a couple of wires in the connector to make the battery power the whole ONT, but that cable is really stiff and difficult to work with with amateur tools.

This is the one device I don't have on a Powerwall circuit, because it's outside.

 

[jboy210]

I have all my computers, network, and TVs on UPSes. This ensures if the PW takes too long (more than a few msec) to take over my devices stay up. Also, it helps isolate my devices from the frequency increases used to shutdown the inverters when the grid is down and the Powerwalls fill up.

I believe we have 4 UPS units. They are all 1500VA.

 

[RKCRLR]

I have 2 UPSs, one primarily for my router that would reboot after the blip and one primarily for my DVR. The DVR would just reboot after an outage without the Powerwalls but the blip with the Powerwalls would cause it to freeze up until I did a hard reboot. Annoying after you come back from a long vacation to find nothing recorded.

 

[miimura]

I have the following UPS units:
APC BGE90M 125VA for main Tivo box
APC SMT1500 1440VA for home server
APC SMC1000C 1000VA for central UPS (hall lighting, home office outlets, structured wiring box including network switch, cable modem, etc.)

The central UPS is connected to a APC UTS10BI wall mounted transfer switch. It has 10 circuits connected to my main sub-panel and each circuit can be configured to draw from the grid, a generator circuit or a UPS circuit.
Now that I look at the specs, I should probably switch the UPS between the server and the central UPS. The higher VA rating should go to the higher loads.

BTW, all of this was in place before the Powerwalls.

 

[jjrandorin]

With a Powerwall, there's going to be a sub-second loss of power when it switches over.
Very few computer equipment that doesn't already have an internal battery can ride that out, so I'm guessing that most people still have small capacity UPSes on critical devices in their house.
Even more so if that device is plugged into a circuit that you realize isn't on the powerwall backed-up side (grr).

How many UPSes do you still have?
I'm down to 2 for my network stuff, but thinking I still need two more. Need to to be able to neuter the on-battery beep tone too.

I have 3 UPS devices (to support the ride over time frame in between switching that can sometimes happen.

(1) Connected to my Synology NAS, (my computer monitors and docking station are also connected here but thats only because of proximity of my NAS to my office workspace.

(1) connected to my main family room AV system (TV, Receiver, Game systems, etc). I am a Home theater enthusiast, so have a pretty nice setup for that stuff and dont want to have surges for the TV or Receiver, both of which are expensive items

(1) connected to my main router and FIOS (fiber) internet ONT in the garage.

Everything else can tolerate the swap time (fridges, etc etc)

 

[Electrph]

just one small UPS

modem / router
also a synology NAS

 

[aesculus]

(1) connected to my main family room AV system (TV, Receiver, Game systems, etc). I am a Home theater enthusiast, so have a pretty nice setup for that stuff and dont want to have surges for the TV or Receiver, both of which are expensive items

I keep my pre amp and amps off when I am not using them because they are very expensive and I also don't use them more than a few times a week so I figure the power on/off may put less pressure on them than standby for days on end. TV is moderately expensive but not like the sound stuff.

I am wondering how the PWs act as a buffer for line surges and stuff? Does anyone have an idea? Aren't they just like a giant UPS isolating the backed loads from the grid?

 

[jjrandorin]

I am wondering how the PWs act as a buffer for line surges and stuff? Does anyone have an idea? Aren't they just like a giant UPS isolating the backed loads from the grid?

I have wondered this, frankly. I dont know, though. I have read here about whole home surge protection, but every time that comes up, a particular poster somewhat "descends from the ether" to start going on and on about it and I end up tuning it out (lol).

For the AV stuff, while my wife is pretty flexible about this stuff in general, my main "theater room" is also our family room, so while I have a 7.2.6 surround sound speaker system, with floor standing speakers for front left and right, I dont have space in the front cabinet for a preamp + amp, so I have denons best receiver (it supports this amount of speakers natively, with no separate amp required).

 

[gpez]

How old is your FIOS ONT? Mine has a battery, but specifically it only powers the POTS connection during an outage.

There's a workaround documented somewhere that you can flip a couple of wires in the connector to make the battery power the whole ONT, but that cable is really stiff and difficult to work with with amateur tools.

This is the one device I don't have on a Powerwall circuit, because it's outside.

It's a Calix P-Series 711GE. Was installed in 2017. P-Series

 

[miimura]

I keep my pre amp and amps off when I am not using them because they are very expensive and I also don't use them more than a few times a week so I figure the power on/off may put less pressure on them than standby for days on end. TV is moderately expensive but not like the sound stuff.

I am wondering how the PWs act as a buffer for line surges and stuff? Does anyone have an idea? Aren't they just like a giant UPS isolating the backed loads from the grid?

The Powerwalls don't isolate anything in normal operation since they're grid interactive until the system detects that the grid parameters are out of bounds. At that point, they island from the grid and act as the micro-grid master. However, it can't transfer as fast as a line interactive UPS. In order for a power system to act as a buffer, it has to do double conversion. In a double conversion system, the battery inverter is supporting the loads all the time and grid is just maintaining the battery charge level. It is much more expensive both in inverter capacity and conversion losses to run a double conversion system.

 

[arnolddeleon]

My Ubiquiti stack is on an Eaton UPS (if I remember correctly, for sure one the ones that tolerate the default Powerwall frequencies). I eventually had Tesla adjust frequencies down.

The cable modem is on whatever UPS Costco was selling a couple of years, probably Cyberpower.

I had a UPS on my desktop computer but batteries died and I haven't replaced them or the UPS yet.

 

[jrweiss98020]

I still have all my electronics on UPSs - I have 9 scattered around the house. The switchover to Powerwalls is too long for the computers, and there may be surges as well, so I just keep them going. The 5 most critical are Cyberpower CP1500PFCLCDs. The old APCs they replaced cover various other electronics.

 

[BGbreeder]

I keep my pre amp and amps off when I am not using them because they are very expensive and I also don't use them more than a few times a week so I figure the power on/off may put less pressure on them than standby for days on end. TV is moderately expensive but not like the sound stuff.

I am wondering how the PWs act as a buffer for line surges and stuff? Does anyone have an idea? Aren't they just like a giant UPS isolating the backed loads from the grid?

Powerwalls won't do much; if you are lucky just the grid facing components will fry. They aren't design to absorb a surge, and won't respond in the nanoseconds needed.

I realize it is easy to tune out the message on whole home surge suppression, but it would seem to me that pretty much everyone here has quite a bit invested in grid facing semiconductor products that aren't going to be happy if there is a surge. A top of the line Siemens whole house surge protector is a little over $200, and comes with a 10 year warranty. Adding up solar, batteries, EV, AV equipment, computers, network devices, UPS units, appliances, furnace, stoves, potentially wiring and circuit breakers...

• How long would it take to remove and replace all of that?
• How long are you going to be dead in the water?
• Order replacements?
• What is the supply chain delay?
• How much of your time arranging it?
• How many hours spent in discussions with insurance, your IOU, your AHJ getting repermitted for ...

At something like $35 a year as an insurance is that really that painful? It takes an electrician less than half an hour to install it.

I am just pointing out that I think for folks here, it makes much more economic sense to have whole house surge suppression than the typical homeowner, even if you don't live in Florida.

All the best,

BG

 

[gpez]

I still have all my electronics on UPSs - I have 9 scattered around the house.

It's not a contest, but you're winning.

 

[miimura]

Is there any known compatibility problems between whole home surge suppression and powerline communications like those used by Enphase monitoring and Insteon? Enphase, for example, tells you not to plug their monitoring device into a surge suppressing power strip, but rather to plug it straight into a wall outlet.

 

[BGbreeder]

@miimura Not as far as I know.

I don't know about the Insteon system in detail, but from what I read on the web Insteon doesn't want the surge protector between the Insteon hub and the controlled devices, but outside control is WiFi, right?

For Enphase, you also wouldn't want a surge protector between the panels and the Envoy, but from the Envoy out, it is WiFi. My Enphase Envoys have no trouble monitoring the panels on a whole house surge protector. The surge suppressor for a whole house system goes as close to the grid as possible, preferably inches away from the main breaker in the first panel on the house side of the meter. Your electrician will probably need to land a twin 20A breaker there, or one of the snazzy integrated breaker / surge protectors that some vendors are producing.

As a general rule the power line communications, like Insteon, are supposed to be local to the house, and some at least need a relay unit to put signal on the other AC leg, because the transformer sinks the signal. I have never been a fan, as there is potential for crosstalk between your system, and any of your neighbors' systems on the same transformer. I have read about it happening in dense urban environments in the early days. No idea if it is still an issue. As I wrote, I don't know much about them these days.

All the best,

BG

 

[miimura]

@miimura Not as far as I know.

I don't know about the Insteon system in detail, but from what I read on the web Insteon doesn't want the surge protector between the Insteon hub and the controlled devices, but outside control is WiFi, right?

For Enphase, you also wouldn't want a surge protector between the panels and the Envoy, but from the Envoy out, it is WiFi. My Enphase Envoys have no trouble monitoring the panels on a whole house surge protector. The surge suppressor for a whole house system goes as close to the grid as possible, preferably inches away from the main breaker in the first panel on the house side of the meter. Your electrician will probably need to land a twin 20A breaker there, or one of the snazzy integrated breaker / surge protectors that some vendors are producing.

As a general rule the power line communications, like Insteon, are supposed to be local to the house, and some at least need a relay unit to put signal on the other AC leg, because the transformer sinks the signal. I have never been a fan, as there is potential for crosstalk between your system, and any of your neighbors' systems on the same transformer. I have read about it happening in dense urban environments in the early days. No idea if it is still an issue. As I wrote, I don't know much about them these days.

All the best,

BG

Thanks. I would expect the Envoy to be more sensitive than Insteon. Insteon has RF+Powerline on most devices these days, so bridging the phases is not necessary any more because the RF can do it. The basic issue is whether the surge suppressor will absorb the powerline high frequency enough to keep any device from receiving the signal from another device on the powerline network.

 

[BGbreeder]

No difference in the Enphase Envoy performance for me. It has been as good as ever. Zero errors.