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What does Toyota see in "Fool" Cells?

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by nwdiver, Jan 6, 2014.

  1. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

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  2. Reykjavik

    Reykjavik Member

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    They haven't mentioned the price of the car, or how efficiently it uses hydrogen. As far as cost goes, it isn't likely to impress anyone. Same with performance, and from an environmental standpoint, hydrogen is really just refined natural gas at this point.

    So unless they have some magic up their sleeves, they probably received grant money to design the thing, and they are hoping to make a few bucks selling to people who want to look like they are environmentally friendly and futuristic, but haven't actually looked into the reality of it. Also ZEV credits are a thing.
     
  3. RandyS

    RandyS Fan of Elon

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    More ZEV credits...That's what I see....
     
  4. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Besides ZEV credits, Toyota doesn't want the simplicity of EVs. That kills their customer's profits (Toyota's customers are the dealers, not the folks actually purchasing the cars).
     
  5. PeterW

    PeterW Member

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    This is one of the advantages that Tesla has over other manufacturers. Any manufacturer that holds on to this way of thinking for the next ten years may well be in serious trouble by then
     
  6. TonyWilliams

    TonyWilliams Active Member

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    Type V - 300+ miles range "hydrogen" - Credit per vehicle: 9 (2015-2017 only)
    Type V - 300+ miles range "fast refueling" - Credit per vehicle: 7
    Type IV - 200+ miles range "fast refueling" - Credit per vehicle: 5
    Type III - 100+ miles range "fast refueling" - Credit per vehicle: 4
    Type III - 200+ miles range -------------- Credit per vehicle: 4
    Type II - 100+ miles range --------------- Credit per vehicle: 3
    Type I.5 - 75-100 miles range ----------- Credit per vehicle: 2.5
    Type I - 50-75 miles range --------------- Credit per vehicle: 2

    After 2017, the credits for Type III, IV and V drop to 3

    All manufacturers must report by May of the calendar year following the compliance model year.
     
  7. evme

    evme Member

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    #7 evme, Jan 7, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
    It has nothing to do with zev credits, it is much more simple than that.

    This article does a good job of explaining why:

    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1086374_does-toyotas-hybrid-leadership-blind-it-to-electric-cars




    So to make long story short. Toyota invested a lot of money into hybrids. All fool cell cars are hybrids. So for Toyota, going full electric means starting from 0. Fool cells allows them to swap the ICE for fool cells and call it a day. Saving them a lot of money and making a painless transition. My guess is their investment in Tesla is their backup plan if things don't end up well for fool cells.(which they won't)
     
  8. Ampster

    Ampster Member

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    I'm not sure I understand how the fool cell gets substituted for an ICE in a hybrid. Unless you mean in a figurative sense. As far as I know a fool cell generates electricity so at minimum a Hybrids pack would have to be increased. Also all the planetary gears between the ICE and electric motor aren't needed. However I agree with the point of the article.
     
  9. Zextraterrestrial

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    #9 Zextraterrestrial, Jan 7, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
    It would need to be more like a Volt (I think)
    run on electric powered motor but fuel cell recharges battery/ powers motor if battery is drained

    I just don't see where you will be more efficient converting anything (CH4 / H20) to compressed H and then stripping electrons to make electricity vs. just using that power directly? Did I miss something in School or what? Maybe I should have taken the fuel cell classes we have @ HSU.
     
  10. evme

    evme Member

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    It is very similar in concept to an ICE, obviously you only need a motor, small lithium ion battery and power comes from the fool cell.

    GreenCarReports also has a test drive of a fool cell vehicle that explains how it works too:

    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1088865_2014-hyundai-tucson-fuel-cell-hydrogen-crossover-first-drive
     
  11. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    It's alibi to keep building ICEs and small battery hybrids. Toyota have officially stated that they are ANTI BEVs. That's a strong standpoint but they seem to stick to it. Will be their demise in personal cars, mark my words.
     
  12. gg_got_a_tesla

    gg_got_a_tesla Model S: VIN P65513, Model 3 Res Holder

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    All the more ironic given that Toyota's $50 million investment in Tesla in May, 2010 is worth probably, ten times that now. Don't understand why Akio Toyoda - who was so taken up with Elon, the Roadster, Tesla as a nimble startup and who initiated the whole new RAV4EV collaboration - hasn't done much more there.
     
  13. mitch672

    mitch672 Active Member

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    Well, they have spent +1 Billion on development of "Hybrid Synergy Drive", most likely they'll come out with a hybrid fuel cell car, wouldn't surprise me to see it have an ICE and Fuel Cells, the fuel cells will recharge the small hybrid battery as a buffer, the car will be very complex, wouldn't be surprised if they have an onboard reformer to convert the gasoline to hydrogen for the fool cells, this avoids the H2 fueling station issues...

    Fool cells are mainly a distraction, so you can appear to be doing something, while maintaining the ICE status quo.
     
  14. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    Well put! Exactly what I meant by "alibi".
     
  15. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    I can only explain hydrogen powered cars by ZEV credits. I do not want to be in a car that contains 10,000 psi tanks of highly flammable gas. And the tanks take up a lot of space so the fuel cell cars don't offer any more carrying capacity than an ICE.

    I can imagine that fuel cell cars built in high volumes might possibly be cost comparable to BEVs at some point. But it is hard to imagine a convenient nationwide network of hydrogen refueling stations will ever be built that is comparable in numbers to what the Tesla SC network be in less than two years.
     
  16. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

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    Here's a conspiracy theory... I wonder if Toyota practically gave Tesla NUMMI expecting a spectacular failure; that would have furthered Toyotas agenda.
     
  17. mitch672

    mitch672 Active Member

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    I think it was more to do with liabilities, the site had several pollution issues, and part of the deal is on a certain date, Tesla "owns" all of the remaining clean up for the site. Also, things where looking pretty dire for the auto industry in 2008, they where happy to unload it. Another factor where the unions, Toyota shed those at the same time... Now the unions are trying to make a come back, it seems.
     
  18. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    There's a lot of misconceptions that FCVs operate like serial hybrids (large battery pack required). But they operate a lot more like series-parallel hybrids like the Prius. It only needs a small battery to provide instantaneous power and regen, while a bulk of the continuous power is supplied by the fuel cell (like the ICE does in a typical hybrid). In fact, a lot of the FCVs use the exact same battery pack as their gasoline hybrid versions (the Hyundai Tuscon for example uses the exact same pack as other Hyundai hybrids)!
     
  19. Ampster

    Ampster Member

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    #19 Ampster, Jan 7, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
    OK, I got that. Isn't the propulsion more like a BEV with an electric motor, single speed gearbox and none of the planetary gears that connected to the ICE?

    The electric motor provides all the propulsion so it is probably bigger than a parallel hybrid and the continuous power that is being supplied by the fuel cell is electricity, correct?
     
  20. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Series hybrid does not mean large battery pack. Series hybrid has enough of a buffer to provide for peak power demands and a smaller power source (ICE, FC, whatever) providing for average load. EREV has a large battery pack.

    Thus you can have an FC series hybrid and an FC EREV and they will operate in a different way, with the former always needing hydrogen and the latter starting the fuel cell when the battery is depleted.
     

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