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What ever happened to V2G tech?
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n2mb_racing
Active Member
Are we at the point where we have extra charge cycles (lifetime) available in our batteries? In the Roadster, no. You get 500 - 1000 cycles max, and you need those for driving. The battery is too expensive to waste on helping the grid...
hill
high fiber member
Maybe so - supposedly the new / londer range Roadster pack might do. Especially if grid draw might only be allowed/requested during extreme times - when/if black/brown outs are likely. At that junction, one might wish ev's /phev's ALL participated anyway. In a no power situation, we'd need the traction pack for our personal power anyway. If it's a matter of 'cost' towards replacement packs, the PUC might reimburse ev - PHEV emergency use at a premium - to make traction pack use worthwhile. It'd beat sitting in the dark.
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Fundamentally, there's no reason the current Model S fleet couldn't be upgraded to V2G tech. All that would need to happen would be for the supercharger/fast DC charge contactors to be enabled. An inverter could draw power through the charge port. If Tesla has thought out the design of the charging system properly (I have little doubt they have not), it will be capable of measuring discharge through that port (using a hall-effect sensor) in the same way as the supercharger/Chademo current measurement is done. (Doesn't charging current sometimes go negative by a few amps during negotiation?)
rolosrevenge
Dr. EVS
The Model S can already provide V2G frequency regulation, spinning reserves, and non-spinning reserves. In a deregulated market, all of those are generally more valuable than the energy you could discharge. So, cycling isn't the issue.
Tam
Well-Known Member
Talking about beating a dead horse:
Tesla Motors Inc (TSLA) Executive: Vehicle-to-Grid Technology Coming Soon
"Currently, a Tesla car offers four battery pack options for its vehicles: 60kWh, 75kWh, 90kWh, and 100kWh, which provide a range of 210-315 miles. Tesla owners who do not cover that many miles a day can sell the remaining energy back to the grid and then charge it overnight at home. The automaker will likely start offering the service after it merges its operations with SolarCity."
ZachShahan
Active Member
It seems that JB Straubel would disagree:
Tesla CTO JB Straubel On Why EVs Selling Electricity To The Grid Is Not As Swell As It Sounds
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Interesting reading ... Electric vehicle fleets could save billions with controllable load and vehicle-to-grid features
The advent of electric vehicles is expected to increase the demand for electricity, but EVs also offer some advantages by controlling the power load. A new study values those advantages in the billions of dollars and it would enable the grid to take better advantage of renewable energy. The Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory published the study this month in Environmental Research Letters in which they use California as an example. They wrote:
“In this study, we forecast the significant grid challenges that arise as more renewables are deployed, specifically the increasing daytime over-generation, increasing evening peaks, and increasing up-ramp and down-ramps. We show that EVs with only V1G capability provide renewables integration capability equivalent to 1.0 GW of stationary storage, a large fraction of the 1.3 GW Storage Mandate, but at a small fraction of the cost. With some vehicles being V2G capable by 2025, vehicles provide renewables integration capability far exceeding that of the Storage Mandate during critical days.”
What they called ‘V1G’ is simply the capacity to control when an electric vehicle is charging in order to avoid peak demand time and stabilize the load. BMW has several pilot programs working on the concept and it expanded one of them with PG&E in California in 2016 after a successful first phase. They have also been looking at scenarios where on top of controlling when EVs charge, the EVs can also send back some of their energy into the grid through what is called ‘vehicle-to-grid’ or V2G.
In the study, they found that using the technology on California’s growing fleet of electric vehicles would be “the equivalent of $12.8–$15.4 billion in stationary storage investment.” Currently, there are not many electric cars equipped with V2G capabilities. The most popular EV with the technology is the new Nissan Leaf.
Tesla has been talking about the technology for a while, but they seem to have walked away from it and instead focused on stationary energy storage systems optimized for daily cycling. While not everyone is on board with V2G, the study highlighted that V1G could alone achieve most of the goals of California’s Storage Mandate, which is so far been achieved through residential and utility-scale energy storage projects.
The advent of electric vehicles is expected to increase the demand for electricity, but EVs also offer some advantages by controlling the power load. A new study values those advantages in the billions of dollars and it would enable the grid to take better advantage of renewable energy. The Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory published the study this month in Environmental Research Letters in which they use California as an example. They wrote:
“In this study, we forecast the significant grid challenges that arise as more renewables are deployed, specifically the increasing daytime over-generation, increasing evening peaks, and increasing up-ramp and down-ramps. We show that EVs with only V1G capability provide renewables integration capability equivalent to 1.0 GW of stationary storage, a large fraction of the 1.3 GW Storage Mandate, but at a small fraction of the cost. With some vehicles being V2G capable by 2025, vehicles provide renewables integration capability far exceeding that of the Storage Mandate during critical days.”
What they called ‘V1G’ is simply the capacity to control when an electric vehicle is charging in order to avoid peak demand time and stabilize the load. BMW has several pilot programs working on the concept and it expanded one of them with PG&E in California in 2016 after a successful first phase. They have also been looking at scenarios where on top of controlling when EVs charge, the EVs can also send back some of their energy into the grid through what is called ‘vehicle-to-grid’ or V2G.
In the study, they found that using the technology on California’s growing fleet of electric vehicles would be “the equivalent of $12.8–$15.4 billion in stationary storage investment.” Currently, there are not many electric cars equipped with V2G capabilities. The most popular EV with the technology is the new Nissan Leaf.
Tesla has been talking about the technology for a while, but they seem to have walked away from it and instead focused on stationary energy storage systems optimized for daily cycling. While not everyone is on board with V2G, the study highlighted that V1G could alone achieve most of the goals of California’s Storage Mandate, which is so far been achieved through residential and utility-scale energy storage projects.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Hope springs eternal for V2G… Tesla could ‘revisit’ vehicle-to-grid technology, says Elon Musk
In a tweet last night, Tesla CEO Elon Musk said he was open to revisiting using the technology in Tesla vehicles:
It’s not the first time that Tesla has talked about bringing back V2G in its vehicles.
We previously reported that Tesla has been flirting with the idea of Vehicle-to-Grid with a bi-directional home charging station for a while now. However, during Tesla’s 2016 Shareholders Meeting and the Gigafactory opening, Musk and Tesla CTO JB Straubel threw some cold water on the idea saying that it is not a priority. Later Ben Hill, head of Tesla Energy for EMEA at the time, hinted at some pilot Vehicle-to-Grid projects during a presentation at the Inter Solar Middle East conference in Dubai. He said:
“There is a lot of pilots [programmes] going around the world right now, the ability… [for] battery systems, which are connected to the grid, whether there[sic] in a vehicle or not, that ability is coming very, very soon.” Almost 2 years later, it still hasn’t materialized, but it looks like Musk is now considering it again.
Do you think Tesla should bring back the feature? Thank you for voting!
In a tweet last night, Tesla CEO Elon Musk said he was open to revisiting using the technology in Tesla vehicles:
It’s not the first time that Tesla has talked about bringing back V2G in its vehicles.
We previously reported that Tesla has been flirting with the idea of Vehicle-to-Grid with a bi-directional home charging station for a while now. However, during Tesla’s 2016 Shareholders Meeting and the Gigafactory opening, Musk and Tesla CTO JB Straubel threw some cold water on the idea saying that it is not a priority. Later Ben Hill, head of Tesla Energy for EMEA at the time, hinted at some pilot Vehicle-to-Grid projects during a presentation at the Inter Solar Middle East conference in Dubai. He said:
“There is a lot of pilots [programmes] going around the world right now, the ability… [for] battery systems, which are connected to the grid, whether there[sic] in a vehicle or not, that ability is coming very, very soon.” Almost 2 years later, it still hasn’t materialized, but it looks like Musk is now considering it again.
Do you think Tesla should bring back the feature? Thank you for voting!
- Yes 85.58% (2,428 votes)
- I don't care 10.89% (309 votes)
- No 3.52% (100 votes)
- Total Votes: 2,837
Regardless of V2G, Tesla seems more interested in controllable load and its value as its customer fleet grows. Here’s a slide from a presentation given by Tesla CTO JB Straubel back in 2015:
Just to be clear, Tesla never offered V2G for buyers of any of their vehicles.
I am not sure what "had the ability" meant, but if some early cars had the capability, they didn't enable/offer it to customers.
There were lots of regulatory, and safety considerations that has held back that technology so far.
I am not sure what "had the ability" meant, but if some early cars had the capability, they didn't enable/offer it to customers.
There were lots of regulatory, and safety considerations that has held back that technology so far.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
From the article … Tesla could ‘revisit’ vehicle-to-grid technology, says Elon Musk
Tesla’s first generation Roadster had the capacity to output power from the battery pack to something other than its electric motor. The technology is often called vehicle-to-grid or vehicle-to-home and it enables electric car owners to power their home with their electric vehicle battery pack.
The automaker has since dropped the technology for its more mass-market vehicles, but it is making a comeback with other automakers and now Tesla is considering bringing it back too, says Elon Musk.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Yep... kinda silly to have V2G if you don't have load control. And by silly I mean worthless. And by worthless I mean worse than worthless...
I'm currently considering the V2H situation, living in northern Idaho with potentially unstable grid due to advancing extreme weather... Already have a 2015 Leaf and have put down the $1000 and now $2500 for my dual motor M3. As I DON'T plan on ever buying another car, I'm belatedly reconsidering, feeling the V2G/V2H issue IS important...
While several issues have been raised, I think they're mostly easily manageable... warranty clarifications, software tracking, disabling on free accounts, and other intelegent management practices... and I AM really BUMMED this issue isn't being handled whereas it's NO PROBLEM in Japan and other places... and we DO drive around HUGE batteries...
Personally I don't care that much about V2G as our utility is full of idiots up here... However, I DO want to add photovoltaics and end up with a system that is SMART and cooperates/works together when needed. I am near deciding I will NOT spend 60K in cash for a vehicle that is barred from cooperating in my move to a regenerative lifestyle...
Would really suck... I luv all Elon has done. Have always dreamed of this future he's ushering in...and finally have the money...
This really should be a non-issue... "if you choose to xxxxxxxx" the V2H energy usage will be aggragated and deducted from battery warranty life" or something like this seems doable... and paying for the ability is fine with me.
guess I have a couple months to explore my options...
While several issues have been raised, I think they're mostly easily manageable... warranty clarifications, software tracking, disabling on free accounts, and other intelegent management practices... and I AM really BUMMED this issue isn't being handled whereas it's NO PROBLEM in Japan and other places... and we DO drive around HUGE batteries...
Personally I don't care that much about V2G as our utility is full of idiots up here... However, I DO want to add photovoltaics and end up with a system that is SMART and cooperates/works together when needed. I am near deciding I will NOT spend 60K in cash for a vehicle that is barred from cooperating in my move to a regenerative lifestyle...
Would really suck... I luv all Elon has done. Have always dreamed of this future he's ushering in...and finally have the money...
This really should be a non-issue... "if you choose to xxxxxxxx" the V2H energy usage will be aggragated and deducted from battery warranty life" or something like this seems doable... and paying for the ability is fine with me.
guess I have a couple months to explore my options...
Tesla doesn't have any interest in V2H since it can sell you another battery and even more $$$ for them with their Powerwall.
I would advocate that Tesla can have its cake and eat it too by allowing for a passthrough connection from the Powerwall to their EVs. synergy and value-added to get even more folk into Powerwalls. Of course by opening up the API for discharging, it invites 3rd party competition, but I'm sure Tesla can software design that restriction to the Powerwall.
The whole battery degradation will crazy talk. The powerwall uses the same battery as the Model 3 and deep cycles constantly on the powerall with quite a solid warranty on the battery too. SOC recs that carry on the EVs don't carry over to the powerall because the inverter limits charges to a slow 2.0 kw/h and discharge of 5kw/h. That's probably a discharge rate equivalent of my Model 3 in creep mode and the AC on.
I would advocate that Tesla can have its cake and eat it too by allowing for a passthrough connection from the Powerwall to their EVs. synergy and value-added to get even more folk into Powerwalls. Of course by opening up the API for discharging, it invites 3rd party competition, but I'm sure Tesla can software design that restriction to the Powerwall.
The whole battery degradation will crazy talk. The powerwall uses the same battery as the Model 3 and deep cycles constantly on the powerall with quite a solid warranty on the battery too. SOC recs that carry on the EVs don't carry over to the powerall because the inverter limits charges to a slow 2.0 kw/h and discharge of 5kw/h. That's probably a discharge rate equivalent of my Model 3 in creep mode and the AC on.
Are you sure about that? Just because the form factor of the "can" is the same, doesn't guarantee that the innards are the same.
Why Tesla's grid batteries will use two different chemistries
Tesla Powerwall - Wikipedia
I've watched a few podcasts of Tesla showing the batteries of pw2 are the same batteries as the model 3. I believe the posts are from this forum too.
Unless someone has information that shows Tesla is bothering to put out two seperate batteries out of their gigafactory causing more inefficiencies, the batteries are more likely than not to be the same...hence musks willingness to venture to offer up the discussion of v2h capabilities
Unless someone has information that shows Tesla is bothering to put out two seperate batteries out of their gigafactory causing more inefficiencies, the batteries are more likely than not to be the same...hence musks willingness to venture to offer up the discussion of v2h capabilities
This seems to imply that they are different:
BREAKING: Panasonic To Increase Gigafactory Cell Production More Than 30% By End Of 2018 | CleanTechnica
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