What Fsd Vs Ap Functionality Is There In The Uk?

[Peteski]

Fair enough, but basically I thought you wanted confirmation of what AP1 could do.

Only in respect of what happens when you manually override AP when switching lanes. I'm pretty sure it would be like AP2 in that respect and that's the problem with the new basic AP i.e. without auto-lane change you would have to bing-bong-bong-bing your way across every lane.

No idea about your AP2 experience, I find auto lane change works fine for me. (2018 AP2.5)

 

[WannabeOwner]

It did respect no passing on the inside lane, which AP1 currently does not.

I thought my AP1 did ... although if I nudge throttle then it will (at least "i think that's what happens" ... situation doesn't arise very often to test it out

 

[Peteski]

I've read that max Max Mode helps?, not tried it though.

I had it set one level below "Mad Max" at the time. I haven't tried "Mad Max" mode in NoA yet, but the normal auto-lane change is still too slow for my taste. Signal, nudge the steering wheel to activate, count to 2, drift slowly across to the indicated lane. It's all a bit painful to be honest, even without intense traffic, but still better than the alternative manual steering override with all the associated bing-bongs and music suppression as you go in/out of Autosteer.

Although less clever, the VW manual lane change system as described by goRT in post #9 would actually be more practical ie. the simple ability to change lane manually without actually cancelling Autosteer. Basically a mode where Autosteer is active in a lane until you manually steer into another lane, but then picks up the new lane automatically. This is where basic AP fails as you have no choice but to cancel Autosteer for any lane change. EAP/FSD overcomes this (in theory) with automatic lane changes, but I've lost count of the number of times I've been forced to override it in traffic. It's a flawed system and makes NoA a non-starter for me until it can cope with real traffic conditions without leaving you for dead in the slowest lane.

 

[WannabeOwner]

ability to change lane manually without actually cancelling Autosteer. Basically a mode where Autosteer is active in a lane until you manually steer into another lane, but then picks up the new lane automatically.

Not driven a car with that, but read about it.

it made me wonder if it would be confusing as to whether AutoSteer was active ... or not. e.g. Start moving to another lane, AutoSteer cancels, once in new lane AutoSteer fails to engage (poor white lines or similar ...) how would you know (absent a Bing-Bong, which is the point of course ... )? Is there a risk that you would think / assume it had engaged and thus not be "driving"?

 

[Peteski]

Not driven a car with that, but read about it.

it made me wonder if it would be confusing as to whether AutoSteer was active ... or not. e.g. Start moving to another lane, AutoSteer cancels, once in new lane AutoSteer fails to engage (poor white lines or similar ...) how would you know (absent a Bing-Bong, which is the point of course ... )? Is there a risk that you would think / assume it had engaged and thus not be "driving"?

You would know by the AS steering wheel icon being lit up as active. That's how I always confirm AS is activated now. The Bing-bong is just irritating (as is the media volume suppression) and wish it could be switched off. Or only make a warning noise when you request AS and it fails to activate for whatever reason.

When I get my M3 with basic AP I will almost certainly just drive it on TACC (no AS) whenever there are frequent lane changes involved. Much as I did with EAP when auto lane-change didn't work on most dual carriageways (V8 days). AS will still be useful on single carriageways and very light motorway traffic. I still don't think £6k is remotely worth paying for FSD with its flaky, but still useful, auto lane-change and the other circus tricks.

 

[WannabeOwner]

You would know by the AS steering wheel icon being lit up as active.

Thanks, sounds like that would be "obvious", but I think all these advances catch drivers out assuming that "It must be doing X" when ... actually ... it isn't! Level-5 will fix that, but all the intermediate stages will, I think, cause some drivers to be caught out ... some of the time

I'm not happy that TACC isn't giving me some of the other-idiot-avoidance that AP does ... but, yeah, FSD is not worth £6k as it stands ... UNLESS it actually avoids an accident that I, personally , would otherwise have had.

 

[elecTED]

Is it just me that thinks it’s misleading that Tesla call the advanced self-driving features ‘FSD’ (Full Self-Driving)?

Even with new features planned for later this year (recognise and respond to traffic lights etc), the car does not have ‘full’ self-driving capabilities.

Full to me means everything (almost autonomous driving capabilities) and clearly there will still be many situations when the car will not be able to self-drive.

I would much rather they called this capability more somethings like ASD - Advanced Self-Driving.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Is it just me

Nope

But in fairness plenty of people think that AutoPilot implies that the car will drive itself - notwithstanding that int he aviation world AutoPilot is indeed understood to mean "supervised by the pilot" ...

... so someone had to pick a marketing name and FSD is what we have got. Debating it is probably just semantics?

I suppose I could play devils advocate and say that "If you buy FSD you are entitled to all the improvements that Tesla make, from now onward, until the car can drive itself". That also includes if the car needs upgraded, faster/bigger, computer chips - Tesla have already said they will provide that for anyone that has purchased FSD.

Musk says Self driving is coming "Real soon now". he's been saying that for a while. Plenty of people on here are saying "Not in the next decade" others are saying "AI improvements are exponential, so the slow trickle of improvements is no indication of future progress".

Tesla is also setting up car-finance deals of the "hand the car back in 3 years" flavour, expecting to get those cars back when FSD does exist, and they will immediately become revenue generating RoboTeslaTaxis - so perhaps Tesla thinks it will be a done deal in 3 years?

Musk is well known for setting over ambitious timescales ... which he rarely achieves ... but he does seem to get there, without too much time-overrun, on most things, including plenty where all the industry pundits said "Cannot be done FULL STOP"

So "maybe" would be my answer.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Full to me means everything

This from Reuters 22-Apr-2019

In response to a media question whether it is problematic that Musk uses the term “full self-driving,” Musk replies: “I think we’re very clear when you buy the car what is meant by full self-driving. It means it’s feature complete. Feature complete requiring supervision ... There’s really three steps: feature complete of full self-driving but requiring supervision, feature complete but not requiring supervision, feature complete not requiring supervision and regulators agree.”

 

[Peteski]

... so someone had to pick a marketing name and FSD is what we have got. Debating it is probably just semantics?

I actually think "FSD" was chosen several years ago with the genuine belief (at least by Elon anyway!) that they would actually achieve a true self-driving car within a year or two. But in reality it has turned out to be far more of a challenge than they ever anticipated and FSD is now merely a BS marketing name for a few token gesture extra features that were already included in the previous EAP. Bold claims such as being able to summon your car from the other end of the country are laughable. Even with exponential development, the road infrastructure and support services, not to mention sharing roads with millions of unpredictable human drivers, makes true FSD a pipe dream for many years to come. No doubt AP/FSD will greatly improve over the next few years and that's not really too hard given its current state. It's good, but not that good, lol.

 

[Drew57]

I had the chance to solo drive my wife’s Fiat 500e on a long journey for the first time yesterday & as it’s the La Prima spec, I tried out the installed TACC/autosteer on 150 miles of both motorway & dual carriageway.

It performed extremely well & held the car perfectly in lane every time until I decided to move across. No jerking or resistance of the wheel & as soon as the car was clearly in the new lane ‘auto’ took over again. A seamless process, implemented very well and without any warnings, bongs or other distractions. A small green representation of the road appears on screen when TACC/Autosteer is enabled, changing to grey as the car swaps lanes and then back to green as you arrive at the centre of the new lane. At that point the car takes over steering again.

Lightly holding the wheel is an identical process to Tesla & if not detected after 15 seconds an orange message appears on screen, followed by red & if ignored control returns to manual until re engaged.

The only severe warning occurred just before indicating from lane two to cross to an off ramp & with a lorry close ahead in lane one. The car snatched control of the steering, slowed & a large red warning appeared on screen accompanied by a siren. This was a deliberate test of what would happen & it seemed to be implemented better than I’ve experienced with the Tesla.

Overall, this is an impressive, smooth and very competent system - a sort of half way house between Tesla Autopilot & EAP, without the need to disengage whether using indicators or not and without the additional slightly annoying sounds from the Tesla. It’s better implemented than Autopilot as are many other features Stelantis seem to have adapted from Tesla with their first ground-up EV.

An impressive little car with a very nice interior and the icing on the cake seems to be town driving efficiency. Short local journeys compared to the 3LR use a smaller % of its 37kW usable battery than the 70kW in the Tesla (often 1% compared to 3% for the Model 3) and even when left unplugged in cold weather it takes many days to show any drop whatsoever in SOC.

 

[WannabeOwner]

if [steering torque absent and alert messages] ignored control returns to manual until re engaged.

I've seen this mentioned for a number of autosteer implementations.

In the case of a medical emergency I'm not sure that "revert to manual" in the outside lane at 70MPH is better than "put the hazards on, stay in lane, and come to a stop"

I've not driven a car that automatically resumes autosteer (e.g. after you manually change lanes). I have read plenty of people saying they like that. I'm not sure I would like being in a situation where there was any ambiguity between who was in charge ... even with the bing-bong on Tesla I sometime find that I think it is on AP when it isn't. I attribute that to a form of Dyslexia that I have where in certain circumstances my speed-of-processing information is significantly slower than others (a colleague looking over my shoulder as I google something will see the useful-data / best-result far faster than I will) and in other instances (spelling mistakes) I can't see the error at all. But might be others have that problem with AP too

 

[M3LR21]

When I bought my Tesla 9 months ago I thought FSD might well be an option I'd be interested in down the line. Now I have serious doubts about that. And the reason is that the basic AP doesn't match the experience described by @Drew57 (and @goRt several years ago).

Perhaps Tesla could deliver that experience now but choose not to - or perhaps because they can't as a result of choices they've made about sensors and software in pursuit of FSD for which delivery been repeatedly been overpromised in terms of capability and timescale? Either way, for me it's a notable disappointment in a car that otherwise does so very many things so very well.

 

[WannabeOwner]

the reason is that the basic AP doesn't match the experience described by @Drew57 (and @goRt several years ago).

In another thread @VanillaAir_UK says the same thing (different experience to mine, cars bought at about the same time). I presume that doesn't match your experience either.

AutoPilot

I'm picking this car up next Saturday. My invoice says 'AutoPilot Included'. I seem to recall when I placed the order that AutoPilot was an extra? I presume either the AutoPilot Included' is either a reduced fudnction AutoPilot or a trial period?

teslamotorsclub.com

I wonder if there is some variability (sensors, or road maps)

 

[Drew57]

Not sure what hardware Fiat uses to implement this but it seems like a smoother and very capable progression from Tesla Autopilot. However, disabling requires pressing a button on the steering wheel (or braking) but that is not at the edge where the thumb would find it easily without glancing down as the 'increase-decrease' speed buttons are outside of it. On that basis the actual process of initiating and cancelling TACC/Autopilot on the Tesla is simpler (unless accidentally activating the childishly annoying rainbow road).

My wife will never use the systems on either car and her only annoyance with the 500e is that lane departure avoidance defaults to 'on' each time the car is started but easily disabled via the steering wheel before departing.

 

[Mrklaw]

There are a few cars now getting these features and many include automatically re-engaging lane keeping after a manoeuvre. Hopefully this pushes Tesla to add that (or auto lane change) to AP

Btw you don’t need to force it out of AP by wrenching the steering wheel - just indicating will disable it. But you do have to have AP correctly detecting your hand on the wheel

 

[Drew57]

Btw you don’t need to force it out of AP by wrenching the steering wheel - just indicating will disable it.

Yes that's true and what I've always done in the Tesla but it's nice to be able to indicate to pull out and then sometimes just move back when well past without indicating (I know it's not correct but with advancing years I've an ever increasing suite of lazy bad habits).

Whether indicators are used or not, the Fiat responds the same and 'autopilot' remains active throughout.

 

[M3LR21]

There are a few cars now getting these features and many include automatically re-engaging lane keeping after a manoeuvre. Hopefully this pushes Tesla to add that (or auto lane change) to AP

Completely agree. Feels like Tesla is well off the pace right now in this regard.

Btw you don’t need to force it out of AP by wrenching the steering wheel - just indicating will disable it. But you do have to have AP correctly detecting your hand on the wheel

I used to think that until someone on this forum told me otherwise. I then realised that AP is super sensitive to my steering wheel input when turning to the right, so cancels lane-assist with almost imperceptible resistance if I'm moving into the outside lane. But in the opposite direction, moving back to the inside lane, whilst indicating with AP engaged, I can't do it smoothly, and overcoming the AP's resistance always causes enough of a sudden movement to cause passengers to notice. Does anyone else find this the same for them? Or maybe my Tesla needs a trip to the service centre.

 

[Mrklaw]

Completely agree. Feels like Tesla is well off the pace right now in this regard.

I used to think that until someone on this forum told me otherwise. I then realised that AP is super sensitive to my steering wheel input when turning to the right, so cancels lane-assist with almost imperceptible resistance if I'm moving into the outside lane. But in the opposite direction, moving back to the inside lane, whilst indicating with AP engaged, I can't do it smoothly, and overcoming the AP's resistance always causes enough of a sudden movement to cause passengers to notice. Does anyone else find this the same for them? Or maybe my Tesla needs a trip to the service centre.

might be worth checking. I thought it needed specific input but after experimenting it seems to just need to be certain AP is currently ‘active’ - so its picked up on your torque/pressure on the wheel recently enough to not be flashing the wheel etc. Then an indication should be enough to cancel AP and you’re free to make the move.

 

[WannabeOwner]

you don’t need to force it out of AP by wrenching the steering wheel - just indicating will disable it

I don't think that's right

I then realised that AP is super sensitive to my steering wheel input when turning to the right, so cancels lane-assist with almost imperceptible resistance if I'm moving into the outside lane

THIS.

My interpretation is that the force needed to overcome the AP steering depends on AP confidence. e.g. on a tight bend then that force can be tiny, if on a motorway with nothing untoward considerable force is needed. When indicating on AP then that force becomes negligible (but is still required ... if you signal and don't steer AP is still active)

But in the opposite direction, moving back to the inside lane, whilst indicating with AP engaged, I can't do it smoothly, and overcoming the AP's resistance always causes enough of a sudden movement to cause passengers to notice. Does anyone else find this the same for them?

I can't say I've noticed that, but I'll check next time. Actually, not sure I can anymore as current cars are EAP / FSD and on signal will change lane. When they fail to do that maybe I'll be able to check how much steering pressure is needed and if Right and Left are different.