What Fsd Vs Ap Functionality Is There In The Uk?

[thegruf]

Can somebody tell me what you get with standard AP vs FSD in the UK these days as I understand they have removed some functions from AP eg lane change and pushed them into FSD, but then there is no point considering FSD if many functions are not working in hte UK at this time, or not on the type of roads I typically use.

Also specifically what works on which road type eg single/dual carriageway/motorway.

For what it's worth I tried asking 3x different Tesla people this and got 2x totally conflicting answers and one "idk but I'll find out and call you back" - which of course they didn't. Go figure.

 

[Peteski]

As I understand it (presuming you are used to EAP as your benchmark), with basic AP you lose the auto lane change, auto parking, summon and Nav on AP. So you just get TACC and basic single lane AP. While losing lane-change makes AP slightly irritating on a motorway/dc I don't think FSD is remotely worth the current cost for what you get.

 

[MrBadger]

What was said above matches my understanding.

Apologies not answering OP, but for other peoples interest, my personal scenario thoughts on FSD are...

We keep our cars for a long time (my last car I changed at 14 years, our current family car is 12+ years), so I opted for the FSD. Its likely got some critical hardware missing needed for FSD (ie to support V2V and V2I) so I hope that as promised in the past with upgrade to whatever is needed for FSD will be free, will be honoured. I kind of view it as an insurance policy that is consumed into the overall cost of the vehicle, where as 7k or whatever it is in the future would require much more consideration. Will be p.ssed off if an after delivery upgrade is discounted in a fire sale as Elon only said it will go up in cost - but then, from experience and reading various sources, Tesla pricing is somewhat volatile so it would not surprise me.

I use to work in Transport Research so you would hear things and know things (we have/had a full level 5 vehicle roaming some parts of London for a few years now concentrating on human factors) and I think some self driving features will mature rapidly, but others will not - personally I don't care about 100% L4/5 FSD, but there are some assist features available now and hopefully in the future (ie greenwaving traffic lights that will require V2I) that I am very much interested in and would expect to become commonplace in lifetime of the vehicle.

I'm new to AP and what I see on tinternet is both awe inspiring (especially how good it can be outside of its current official use cases) and terrifying (when it incorrectly reacts to some scenarios well within its official use cases). I believe that, especially with more powerful hardware, both the good and the bad will progress and improve rapidly, making the system better at what it does now and open up more official use cases ([some?] roundabouts and [some?] non freeway driving), but still assisted, not FSD. Personally advanced summon looks to be a gimmick (but admittedly a high risk [risks becoming something to be mocked] company technology showcase) that unless it can navigate its way around a big supermarket car park, amongst all the other cars doing the same when its suddenly started p.ing down, it will remain so, especially in Europe that seems to want to slow autonomy up - I can see both sides.

I am personally surprised at the number of people locking in FSD that would appear to be short term owners - finance, have car 2-3 years and upgrade etc. I'm not really sure that in this time, FSD will be anything more than a slightly better EAP. I can see that for some, FSD (and previously EAP) would be a big help, but for many others (including ourselves short term - we probably average 40 miles on motorway each week) just an occasional novelty. AP now gets TACC which was the previously glaring omission for AP, so its on a par/even exceeds other manufacturers offering at this price point. The important bit about FSD is that currently, you can upgrade to AP after delivery. Apart from cost, no decision to be made - whether this remains the same when AP4, 5, 6 etc comes our remains to be seen. I don't think it will add any value to the car - its possible that if Robocar gets off the ground in 3-5 years, some of these cars from short term finance will become part of a Tesla owned fleet - in which case they will just add FSD at no/little cost to them.

Just my 2p

 

[elecTED]

I have a reservation for a M3 SR+ but did not order FSD at this time.

FSD in time (in time = potentially a years away) will deliver a much richer self-driving experience on UK roads but at this time I see some of the FSD features as nice (and costly) party tricks that you can use to impress family and friends (eg, summon).

I drove a £21K 2018 Honda Civic 1.0 Turbo SR rental car the other day and it had TACC and LKAP, ie AP! It worked reasonably well.

I am quite disappointed that on a state-of-the-art £40K+ EV from Tesla, AP is just really the same feature you can get with ICE cars at around half the cost.

 

[Peteski]

What was said above matches my understanding.

Apologies not answering OP, but for other peoples interest, my personal scenario thoughts on FSD are...

We keep our cars for a long time (my last car I changed at 14 years, our current family car is 12+ years), so I opted for the FSD. Its likely got some critical hardware missing needed for FSD (ie to support V2V and V2I) so I hope that as promised in the past with upgrade to whatever is needed for FSD will be free, will be honoured. I kind of view it as an insurance policy that is consumed into the overall cost of the vehicle, where as 7k or whatever it is in the future would require much more consideration. Will be p.ssed off if an after delivery upgrade is discounted in a fire sale as Elon only said it will go up in cost - but then, from experience and reading various sources, Tesla pricing is somewhat volatile so it would not surprise me.

I use to work in Transport Research so you would hear things and know things (we have/had a full level 5 vehicle roaming some parts of London for a few years now concentrating on human factors) and I think some self driving features will mature rapidly, but others will not - personally I don't care about 100% L4/5 FSD, but there are some assist features available now and hopefully in the future (ie greenwaving traffic lights that will require V2I) that I am very much interested in and would expect to become commonplace in lifetime of the vehicle.

I'm new to AP and what I see on tinternet is both awe inspiring (especially how good it can be outside of its current official use cases) and terrifying (when it incorrectly reacts to some scenarios well within its official use cases). I believe that, especially with more powerful hardware, both the good and the bad will progress and improve rapidly, making the system better at what it does now and open up more official use cases ([some?] roundabouts and [some?] non freeway driving), but still assisted, not FSD. Personally advanced summon looks to be a gimmick (but admittedly a high risk [risks becoming something to be mocked] company technology showcase) that unless it can navigate its way around a big supermarket car park, amongst all the other cars doing the same when its suddenly started p.ing down, it will remain so, especially in Europe that seems to want to slow autonomy up - I can see both sides.

I am personally surprised at the number of people locking in FSD that would appear to be short term owners - finance, have car 2-3 years and upgrade etc. I'm not really sure that in this time, FSD will be anything more than a slightly better EAP. I can see that for some, FSD (and previously EAP) would be a big help, but for many others (including ourselves short term - we probably average 40 miles on motorway each week) just an occasional novelty. AP now gets TACC which was the previously glaring omission for AP, so its on a par/even exceeds other manufacturers offering at this price point. The important bit about FSD is that currently, you can upgrade to AP after delivery. Apart from cost, no decision to be made - whether this remains the same when AP4, 5, 6 etc comes our remains to be seen. I don't think it will add any value to the car - its possible that if Robocar gets off the ground in 3-5 years, some of these cars from short term finance will become part of a Tesla owned fleet - in which case they will just add FSD at no/little cost to them.

Just my 2p

I think you probably made the right call on FSD if you are keeping the car for 10+ years. Basic AP is a bit crippled (deliberately so IMO) without auto-lane change. Not so much because of the actual functionality of the lane change (which can be painfully slow), but simply because you are forced to "bing-bong-bing" your way in and out of AP every single time you make a lane change on a motorway or dc. Tesla could easily address this issue if they wanted, but then they would stand to lose FSD sales, at least from experienced Tesla owners who are familiar with EAP and the obvious limitations of FSD.

The other current FSD features i.e. Summon, Nav on AP, Autoparking, are all next to useless for most people, especially in the UK. I currently have all those features on EAP and rarely find any of them useful. Some people do find Summon convenient for extremely tight parking, but I've never felt the need myself. Autoparking is okay actually, but quite limited in its scope for finding spaces. Nav on AP is a joke on busy UK roads.

As for future cost of upgrading to FSD, I presume you know what happened with S/X upgrades? At one point they got cheaper than speccing FSD originally. When I bought my MX in early 2018, FSD would have cost a cool £7500 at the time. EAP was £4700 and at least I now get most of the promised functionality. In all likelihood I think so-called FSD is more likely to get a little cheaper over time as Tesla stand to maximise revenue by getting everyone onboard. Making it more expensive will lose them a LOT of potential upgrade bonuses.

I think all those people on short term lease and finance deals are going to wish they had bought something else with the £6k they could have saved on largely non-functional FSD. I just don't think many people understand what they have or have not bought into! I remember myself blindly ticking the EAP box when I ordered my MX and thank goodness I didn't tick FSD too!

 

[Peteski]

I am quite disappointed that on a state-of-the-art £40K+ EV from Tesla, AP is just really the same feature you can get with ICE cars at around half the cost.

Tesla AP is way better than most typical ICE equivalents, especially the AS capability. Although to be fair it's coming up to 2 years since I tried an alternative. Last one I tried was on a Volvo XC90 T8 and that was poor in comparison. Plus at least Tesla AP is now a standard feature of the base car too. Previously it was a pretty expensive upgrade, although you did get EAP with all the current FSD functionality.

 

[thegruf]

As I understand it (presuming you are used to EAP as your benchmark), with basic AP you lose the auto lane change, auto parking, summon and Nav on AP. So you just get TACC and basic single lane AP. While losing lane-change makes AP slightly irritating on a motorway/dc I don't think FSD is remotely worth the current cost for what you get.

this is what i thought - thanks for confirming.

so in the UK does FSD do manually initiated lane change on dual carriageways or just motorways, and what of NoA - does this even work in the UK yet, and again on dual carriageways or just on Motorways, and does it work completely without manual intervention.
Then if NoA in the UK does work, does it do on-ramp to off ramp here yet?

 

[Peteski]

this is what i thought - thanks for confirming.

so in the UK does FSD do manually initiated lane change on dual carriageways or just motorways, and what of NoA - does this even work in the UK yet, and again on dual carriageways or just on Motorways, and does it work completely without manual intervention.
Then if NoA in the UK does work, does it do on-ramp to off ramp here yet?

My EAP (2018 MX) does lane change on all dual carriageways/motorways and NoA on motorways, but hasn't worked for me on DCs yet. Although I've only used NoA a couple of times (enough to see it's pretty useless!). I haven't tested NoA on off ramps or in full automatic lane change mode - only suggested lane change mode. As you might expect it's too slow to react and move over in aggressive traffic.

 

[goRt]

Tesla AP is way better than most typical ICE equivalents, especially the AS capability. Although to be fair it's coming up to 2 years since I tried an alternative. Last one I tried was on a Volvo XC90 T8 and that was poor in comparison. Plus at least Tesla AP is now a standard feature of the base car too. Previously it was a pretty expensive upgrade, although you did get EAP with all the current FSD functionality.

I've got a 2017 VW golf and it will happily stay in lane and follow the lines on single carriageway roads (and dual) all day long without issue (just like Tesla you have to let it feel your steering inputs every 30s or so).
Where VW massively beats Tesla is on a motorway overtaking - flick the indicator and lane keep disengages until you're in the next lane BUT TACC remains engaged, when the car detects you're in the next lane then lane keep resumes. You can choose to display what the car is sensing in terms of sides of the lane.

 

[Peteski]

I've got a 2017 VW golf and it will happily stay in lane and follow the lines on single carriageway roads (and dual) all day long without issue (just like Tesla you have to let it feel your steering inputs every 30s or so).
Where VW massively beats Tesla is on a motorway overtaking - flick the indicator and lane keep disengages until you're in the next lane BUT TACC remains engaged, when the car detects you're in the next lane then lane keep resumes. You can choose to display what the car is sensing in terms of sides of the lane.

I have no experience of the VW system, but sounds very good. Tesla auto-lane change is a bit hiss or miss for me. Sometimes just too slow to get on with it and sometimes doesn't work at all for no good reason. Would be great if it didn't disengage AS with a signalled manual lane change, but at least TACC does remain on.

 

[vitesse]

I've got a 2017 VW golf and it will happily stay in lane and follow the lines on single carriageway roads (and dual) all day long without issue (just like Tesla you have to let it feel your steering inputs every 30s or so).
Where VW massively beats Tesla is on a motorway overtaking - flick the indicator and lane keep disengages until you're in the next lane BUT TACC remains engaged, when the car detects you're in the next lane then lane keep resumes. You can choose to display what the car is sensing in terms of sides of the lane.

AP1 does that

 

[Peteski]

AP1 does that

So are you saying that AP1 automatically re-engages Autosteer after a manual lane change in AP? With AP2 for a manual lane change in AP you first have to disengage AS by overriding the steering (if you want TACC to remain on) and then manually switch AS back on with all the associated bing-bongs! I always assumed AP1 was the same in this respect.

 

[Mark_T]

I am personally surprised at the number of people locking in FSD that would appear to be short term owners - finance, have car 2-3 years and upgrade etc. I'm not really sure that in this time, FSD will be anything more than a slightly better EAP.../QUOTE]

I have a 4 year PCP deal and it made sense to me as I am only paying for 50% of the cost spread over the 4 years and at a very low interest rate....

 

[WannabeOwner]

AP now gets TACC which was the previously glaring omission for AP,

Haven't understood that, can you clarify please?

AP is just really the same feature you can get with ICE cars at around half the cost.

Doubt it, which of these things does your £20K ICE do as standard?

Engage at 0 MPH in stop-start traffic and nudge along? and steer if the road bends of course.

Swerve to avoid car intruding from adjacent lane?

Brake if car two-in-front slows and car-in-front-does not?

Stay in lane on A-Road with good markings?

What about a B-road with central line but only verge / curb on the nearside?

Drive round a tight double bend on regular road? Including slow down for that as appropriate?

Slow down when you come into a 30 MPH limit ... drive through the village ... speed up again when you come out of 30 MPH limit?

There are limits on some things that AP can do in those situations ... so I am taking best-case ... no vehicles blocking road ... but I very much doubt that other premium brands offering "autosteer" match Tesla in real-world situations, let alone "ICE at half the price"

it's too slow to react and move over in aggressive traffic

I've read that max Max Mode helps?, not tried it though.

 

[gangzoom]

I've got a 2017 VW golf and it will happily stay in lane and follow the lines on single carriageway roads (and dual) all day long without issue (just like Tesla you have to let it feel your steering inputs every 30s or so).
Where VW massively beats Tesla is on a motorway overtaking - flick the indicator and lane keep disengages until you're in the next lane BUT TACC remains engaged, when the car detects you're in the next lane then lane keep resumes. You can choose to display what the car is sensing in terms of sides of the lane.

What your describing is basically lane keep assist with radar cruise control.

Following a white line is very easy, most sixth form students should be able to build a robot that can do this, however thats not even close to 'full self driving'.

If you look at what Tesla AP software since 9.0 is doing your quickly realise its much much more advanced than just sticking in lane.

The 'Tesla vision' is improving with every update, the car now can consistently 'see' surrounding vehicles, cyclists, even pedestrians (though less reliably). The car is also starting to process this info, after changing lanes to overtake I've noticed the car wants to move back into the slower lane much quicker if there is another car behind.

The current software also reponds to merging traffic well, and even when lane lines disappear at traffic lights/mini round abouts it makes a good 'guess' at which way to go without crashing into stationary traffic. This is far more advanced than anything else I've seen.

The suggestion is though Tesla vision is coming along nicely even on 2.0 CPU, its already taxing the processing power to 80% consistently. A move to 3.0 CPU is 100% needed to now actually action on the vision data the car now generates.

The next 6-12 months will be really exciting from the FSD point of view, and partly why I was happy to order it in the recent 'sale'.

Legislation may handicap things though, our X would have done the M6 trip from Stoke to Kendal including overtaking slower traffic, getting into lane for Mway junctions all by it self with 'Nav on AP' if the EU/UN laws weren't implemented .

 

[RjbT3]

Do you know what? After reading this thread I've realised why I need to keep my FSD option. Not because it's fully working, but because it's moving forward and entertaining. Driving long distances/long commutes is BORING and tiring. Using/monitoring/playing etc. with FSD should be well worth the money. What price to relieve monotonous driving hours when life is too short to be in a car for that long in the first place. For me anyway.

 

[WannabeOwner]

One other data point to add:

I've seen Tesla Supporters saying they have bought FSD in the expectation that they are unlikely to benefit during their personal ownership of the car, but because they want to "sponsor" Tesla to progress and succeed.

So for folk environmentally committed that may be a reason.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Using/monitoring/playing etc. with FSD should be well worth the money

Could make you money too ... capturing edge-cases on YouTube as Tesla Driver does

 

[RjbT3]

Could make you money too ... capturing edge-cases on YouTube as Tesla Driver does

If that guy could actually speak properly I'd watch his videos. Plus, he must enjoy it because it seems to be his only purpose in life!

 

[Peteski]

One other data point to add:

I've seen Tesla Supporters saying they have bought FSD in the expectation that they are unlikely to benefit during their personal ownership of the car, but because they want to "sponsor" Tesla to progress and succeed.

So for folk environmentally committed that may be a reason.

Usually people in denial that they actually got ripped off! So far every single person who bought FSD in the last x years has had zero benefit over EAP, which itself was a fairly expensive work in progress. "Sponsoring" FSD development might make them feel better, but they still got taken for a ride (or not in this case, lol)

Buying a new Tesla today, we now have the option of crippled AP (single lane) as standard or EAP dressed up as FSD with a price tag to match!