Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

What if FSD doesn't materialize?

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
I can't predict the future or what they will do with new hardware but I can say with certainty the hardware and sensors that currency on the cars are not capable of anything but level 2 driver assist which is consistent with what they have told regulators. If FSD is level 4/5 then it's nto possible unless they upgrade the sensors to be self cleaning among many other issues. So I guess as long as you keep your FSD expectations in line you won't be disappointed. I do feel it's disengenous at the very least to keep selling it and saying it will drive itself some day which it isn't even being designed to do such a thing.
They have long removed those promises from the order page. You can still find some references in the info pages, but it'll become arguable if those necessarily still apply to all cars being sold today if it's not mentioned at all in the order page. Basically today, if you order a new Tesla, Tesla only explicitly promises the forthcoming City Autosteer feature (which FSD Beta is testing for) and nothing beyond that.

Actually it is the people who ordered the $3000 option in the 2016 that was promised the most, as the order page specifically promised features that suggested at minimum L4 (with caveats of validation and regulatory approval).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jejunjm and daktari
This was discussed in the past. Tesla is only required to provide the "bare minimum" to meet their promises with the older hardware. They are not required to provide all the features newer hardware may provide.
But the "bare minimum" advertised when HW2/2.5 was being delivered was hands off driving anywhere in the USA at a safety level 2X that of a human. What "features" more than that do you want?

enabling full self-driving in almost all circumstances, at what we believe will be a probability of safety at least twice as good as the average human driver. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat.

All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you.
They quite likely owe people with HW2/2.5 much more than someone with HW3 bought in 2020 as they have dramatically backed off on their promises while increasing prices.
 
Last edited:
But the "bare minimum" advertised when HW2/2.5 was being delivered was hands off driving anywhere in the USA at a safety level 2X that of a human. What "features" more than that do you want?
The pedantic in me says that is not exactly what is said (Tesla lawyers may argue the same). There's a huge caveat there:
"enabling full self-driving in almost all circumstances, at what we believe will be a probability of safety at least twice as good as the average human driver."

Maybe averaging over all road scenarios (kind of like the AP statistics Tesla posts) it will be 2x safer or higher, but that is different than saying it is 2x safer anywhere in the USA, under all circumstances. For example in a very busy city road, it may be less than 2x safer, while in highway roads it is way higher than 2x safer, but overall it's still more than 2x safer, as more miles would be driven on highways.

They quite likely owe people with HW2/2.5 much more than someone with HW3 bought in 2020 as they have dramatically backed off on their promises while increasing prices.
I agree, but Tesla has indicated already they will retrofit HW3 for HW2/2.5 owners. However, unless they can't perform the "bare minimum" with HW3, I doubt they will do HW4 also.
 
I can fully agree with the 2X not being anywhere, and that will always be a broad, statistical evaluation. The real reason I said "anywhere in the USA" is that they can't deliver FSD in a highly geofenced area 1,300 miles away from me and claim they have delivered FSD as promised.

If they can do that on HW3, no more HW is owed. If it takes them until HW6, then HW6 is owed. I agree they only owe the "Bare minimum" as long as we agree that is the car driving hundreds of miles from my driveway to a hotel parking lot with zero interactions. That's a pretty high "bare minimum" bar. We're so far away from that right now that it seems pointless to discuss what other features they might be able to enable with future HW.
 
That's all well and good; you have described a typical government approval process. What I continue to try and point out is that in the USA there is no government process to "approve" an autonomous vehicle. There is no delay for "regulatory approval" because no such thing exists. All it takes to get an autonomous car on the road is for the manufacturer to have enough confidence in their system to put it on the road.

The only real example we have right now is Waymo. What government agency granted them a license to operate? Where is the paperwork granting that authorization? Can you link to the source? The answer is no because there is no overseeing authority in Arizona, because it is not required. There are no rules to change because there are no rules to begin with.

Here is Arizona's requirements:


Relevant quote


Fill out a form to let Arizona know your self-driving cars are on the road, and "regulatory approval" is complete.

The laws as they exist are gray about driver assistance like AP. However there are many laws about drivers not paying attention to what the car is doing. Those laws have grown in number to curb people using their cell phones while driving. As it is now, you will get ticketed for distracted driving if you are using FSD and doing anything but watching the road.

Further laws will need to change to allow cars to travel around with no drivers.
 
It looks like it was written by a lawyer paid by the word. My partner is an attorney and taught legal writing. She would have failed a student who wrote something like that.
Its funny, I'm a retired lawyer and thought the same thing. Here is how I'd rewrite:
Tesla does not fully regression test software. So, we might ruin previously working features. Furthermore, we might never finish some features.​
It could probably be written without the first sentence -- but its my current working theory why the Tesla manuals haven't matched their software for the last 15 months.
 
The laws as they exist are gray about driver assistance like AP. However there are many laws about drivers not paying attention to what the car is doing. Those laws have grown in number to curb people using their cell phones while driving. As it is now, you will get ticketed for distracted driving if you are using FSD and doing anything but watching the road.

Further laws will need to change to allow cars to travel around with no drivers.
What if you were sitting in the back seat? You are no longer the "driver."
 
What if you were sitting in the back seat? You are no longer the "driver."
What if you turn on cruise control in a normal car and then hop into the backseat? Does that absolve you of all responsibility and are you no longer the "driver"? I think the scenario would be treated exactly the same under current law.

Basically until Tesla announces at minimum they are L3+ and they are taking all legal responsibility for the car with the L3+ mode active (like Honda is doing in their 100 vehicle lease in Japan), all legal responsibility still falls on the driver. Tesla had been clear with California's regulators even FSD Beta right now is still fully a L2 feature (to prep for City Autosteer). Tesla still has a ways to go until L3+ release.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nocturnal










FSD is just the latest iteration of level 5 autonomy from Elon/Tesla. I realize they went down that path initially with Mobileye and started off by offering Autopilot. But Elon has made many predictions about level 5 / full autonomous coming from Tesla - as far back as 2015. Now, to be fair, Google, Uber, and others have made claims and missed those timelines as well. So it's not like Elon and Tesla are out on an island promising things within certain timeframes that just don't materialize.

But Elon did throw a bit of a marker down with his "for sure" comments about >1m robotaxis by end of 2020. Even if you give them some pandemic leeway with that timeline, they still missed. I guess at this point, the question is do you believe Tesla is close to level 5 (despite nearly every other auto analyst disagreeing) or is this just another case of crying wolf.
Dude no one is remotely close to SAE level 5. In most of Elon’s statements he seems to really be describing Level 3 or maybe 4. Level 5 is literally a car that handles all edge cases as well as a human driver following all travel rules. I simply do not see that in the next decade. Not possible. Hope I’m wrong though
 
  • Like
Reactions: DanCar
Is there any published agreed upon "conditions" for self driving? If you define the conditions, you can very easily reach various levels of automation. If you go the supercruise approach, you could say Tesla is very close to L4-5 on specific stretches of roads under specific weather conditions (i.e. no snow etc.). I suspect most people assume that an autonomous car would be able to drive in any condition they could but I don't think that is a fair expectation.

What if Tesla gets FSD working great but only in specific areas. Does that count? What if it works everywhere but only during the day? What if it works day & night but not in rain or snow? What if it can work any weather but only in certain places? There are all types of conditions that can come into play and manufactures can demonstrate success in different cases. Which conditions do you think the public will accept / expect?

For me, I trust and use AP on the freeways all the time. I keep my hands on the wheel and realize there are times (like in construction zones) that it may get it wrong. If they get the navigate on city streets to the same level as the current highways, I will consider it a success. I'm not looking to sleep in my car but I realize everyone has different expectations.
No offense but go check out the actual definition of SAE Autonomy levels on there site. It’s a pretty dense read BUT rather clear on what defines the levels. Not much room for interpretation. No such thing as geofences in Level 5 for example (that would be Level 4 at best)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ruffles
Dude no one is remotely close to SAE level 5. In most of Elon’s statements he seems to really be describing Level 3 or maybe 4. Level 5 is literally a car that handles all edge cases as well as a human driver following all travel rules. I simply do not see that in the next decade. Not possible. Hope I’m wrong though

What, uh, do you think a robotaxi is supposed to be?


July 16, 2020
“I’m extremely confident that Level 5 autonomy, or essentially complete autonomy, will happen, and I think it will happen very quickly,” Musk said in a video message to the World Artificial Intelligence Conference in Shanghai. “I remain confident that [Tesla] will have the basic functionality for Level 5 autonomy complete this year.”


Q: "Just so that we understand the definitions, when you refer to 'feature complete self-driving' it sounds like you're talking level 5, no geofencing. Is that's what expected by the end of the year, just so we're all on the same page?"
Elon: "Yes."

Elon has referred to level 5 a bunch of times. Is this a take him seriously but not literally kind of thing?
 
This is exactly my point. No "approval by regulators" required to fulfill your above statement. But that is what it will take for a true autonomous car to take the road.
That's not exactly true. Honda required approval from Japanese regulators (MLIT) to put their L3+ car on the road (the first L3+ car in the world that consumers can at least lease, although it's only a limited fleet of 100 and lease-only).
Honda Global | November 11, 2020 Honda Receives Type Designation for Level 3 Automated Driving in Japan

The CA DMV made it clear Tesla must get their approval before putting any L3+ cars on the road. There might be some jurisdictions that allow it without any sort of formal approval however.

There was some discussion on this elsewhere, like what happens if Tesla allows FSD (a L3+ version) to activate in some jurisdiction that doesn't require approval, but then the owner drives it or sets it to drive into a jurisdiction that does. Like even if Tesla puts a software geofence that disallows it from activating there, or from setting a destination there, the owner can drive the car there manually. Then technically that L3+ car is still in that given jurisdiction without approval. This is not a concern for the other fleets being tested, but for consumer owned cars that is a concern.
 
Last edited:
What, uh, do you think a robotaxi is supposed to be?





Q: "Just so that we understand the definitions, when you refer to 'feature complete self-driving' it sounds like you're talking level 5, no geofencing. Is that's what expected by the end of the year, just so we're all on the same page?"
Elon: "Yes."

Elon has referred to level 5 a bunch of times. Is this a take him seriously but not literally kind of thing?
Oh yes he is saying that. But he also said that the cars sold in late 2016 had everything they needed for Level 5. He also said there would be coast to coast demo (NY to LA) by end of 2017. Elon says a lot of interesting things. I try not to take him at his word but rather attempt to translate what I think he means. Otherwise it would appear mr Elon had either a vivid imagination or trouble with the truth. I’m a glass half full type of guy hence i “translate” his statements.
 
That's not exactly true. Honda required approval from Japanese regulators (MLIT) to put their L3+ car on the road (the first L3+ car in the world that consumers can at least lease, although it's only a limited fleet of 100 and lease-only).
Honda Global | November 11, 2020 Honda Receives Type Designation for Level 3 Automated Driving in Japan

The CA DMV made it clear Tesla must get their approval before putting any L3+ cars on the road. There might be some jurisdictions that allow it without any sort of formal approval however.

There was some discussion on this elsewhere, like what happens if Tesla allows FSD (a L3+ version) to activate in some jurisdiction that doesn't require approval, but then the owner drives it or sets it to drive into a jurisdiction that does. Like even if Tesla puts a software geofence that disallows it from activating there, or from setting a destination there, the owner can drive the car there manually. Then technically that L3+ car is still in that given jurisdiction without approval. This is not a concern for the other fleets being tested, but for consumer owned cars that is a concern.
Yes, I agree. I was mainly referring to the USA, since I know there are other restrictions in certain countries.

There are several states in the US where autonomous cars are explicitly allowed, some where it is not allowed, and many where it isn’t explicitly allowed or disallowed. I would be fine with a geofence around certain locations. That would allow a safety record to built to convince the other locations.

To put a finer point on it, the only group that is not allowing Tesla cars on the road autonomously is Tesla, not “regulatory agencies.” Not saying that the FSD software is ready yet, just that the holdup won’t be “regulatory approval.”
 
Oh yes he is saying that. But he also said that the cars sold in late 2016 had everything they needed for Level 5. He also said there would be coast to coast demo (NY to LA) by end of 2017. Elon says a lot of interesting things. I try not to take him at his word but rather attempt to translate what I think he means. Otherwise it would appear mr Elon had either a vivid imagination or trouble with the truth. I’m a glass half full type of guy hence i “translate” his statements.


No need to translate, he is a champion huckster - he knew damn well he was lying when he made those statements. He was desperate to keep his company afloat. Im shocked Tesla hasnt been sued by FSD buyers, he sold them vaporware.
 
That's not exactly true. Honda required approval from Japanese regulators (MLIT) to put their L3+ car on the road (the first L3+ car in the world that consumers can at least lease, although it's only a limited fleet of 100 and lease-only).
Honda Global | November 11, 2020 Honda Receives Type Designation for Level 3 Automated Driving in Japan

The CA DMV made it clear Tesla must get their approval before putting any L3+ cars on the road. There might be some jurisdictions that allow it without any sort of formal approval however.

There was some discussion on this elsewhere, like what happens if Tesla allows FSD (a L3+ version) to activate in some jurisdiction that doesn't require approval, but then the owner drives it or sets it to drive into a jurisdiction that does. Like even if Tesla puts a software geofence that disallows it from activating there, or from setting a destination there, the owner can drive the car there manually. Then technically that L3+ car is still in that given jurisdiction without approval. This is not a concern for the other fleets being tested, but for consumer owned cars that is a concern.

Right now autopilot is not allowed in some countries. Though it is legal to have a car with autopilot in those countries, you just can't use it. I would assume it will be the same for a car with FSD in a jurisdiction that doesn't allow it.

This site has a lot of detail on FSD laws in the US
Which states allow self-driving cars? (2021 Update) | AutoInsurance.org

Oh yes he is saying that. But he also said that the cars sold in late 2016 had everything they needed for Level 5. He also said there would be coast to coast demo (NY to LA) by end of 2017. Elon says a lot of interesting things. I try not to take him at his word but rather attempt to translate what I think he means. Otherwise it would appear mr Elon had either a vivid imagination or trouble with the truth. I’m a glass half full type of guy hence i “translate” his statements.

I know some people think Elon is a huckster, but I don't see it. As a development engineer I've been guilty of the same thing (on a smaller scale). I see what is possible in the final product, but I underestimate the effort it's going to take to get there and it takes a lot longer than I thought. I'm better than average, I've seen some engineers miss their targets by years.

When I was at Boeing I worked in a lab that tested all the electronics that was under development for commercial aircraft. We built the simulators to test the hardware. I started a couple of years before the 777 was developed and was there through the early flight tests. Because the 777 had more electronics than any commercial aircraft to date and a lot of new technology for the industry, we had to develop a lot of new interfaces. The earlier aircraft used point to point communication like a USB cable. One end had the computer reading the data and the other had the device sending it.

The 777 had a new data bus that had been in development for over 10 years that was more like ethernet. A bunch of devices sending data on one wire with one or more computers on the same cable. Much more complex problem, but the R&D people had worked out the protocols to make it all happen. However now we had to make simulation hardware to talk to each of these components in as realistic a scenario as possible. At the same time the people making stuff destined for the aircraft had their own implementation problems to deal with.

The guy running the team developing the simulator interface thought it was going to be done in 6 months. It took more than 2 years. Just for one piece of the puzzle. As he got close to done, the software people could get their part together, but they had delays too because the software ended up taking longer than they predicted.

Tesla is attempting to create the equivalent system to an aircraft's autopilot capable of complete end to end operation without the need for a "pilot" in the loop. Something modern aircraft are pretty close to capable of now, in an environment with far fewer edge cases, but they still require two pilots by law in every country. Flying commercial aircraft today is an amazingly boring job.

The first primitive aircraft autopilots were introduced in WW II. They have been evolving for 70 years and it's still not legal for the plane to be flying with nobody at the controls. The first primitive autonomous driving systems for cars were cruise control which debuted in the 1970s. Possibly the late 60s. By the 80s they had electronic cruise control that could handle hills. Autosteering only came along in the last decade (on production cars).

90% of self driving conditions are quite easy to handle, but the edge cases can be like trying to get a bunch of balloons through a room full of razor blades. The last 10% is always the toughest part of the problem.

The engineers envisioning the system see how it will work when the problems are all worked out and vastly underestimate the effort it takes to get there. When it's the boss who is the visionary it's even worse because the engineers don't want to disappoint the boss with negative predictions and they pad their already optimistic estimates to be even more optimistic to please the boss.

Oh and I recall a few years ago Elon was making one of his FSD predictions and added a caveat that while he thought level 5 was going to be there by x date (long passed now), he said the regulatory issues may prevent people from using it when ready. I haven't heard him talk about regulatory hurdles since, but he's aware of them.

I've always been skeptical of the dream that the world would be full of autonomous taxis and people would rent out their cars when they weren't using them for ride sharing. I think level 3 is very doable and likely soon. We'll see how the regulators deal with it, but that's going to be on the road in the next year or two. Level 4 is going to be a bigger lift and we might get there, but we may never get to level 5.

The last year has made governments in functioning democracies very aware of employment issues. Even if level 5 was proven to be viable, I'm not sure many regulators would allow it. Many corporations will push for it, but it would lead to catastrophic unemployment that could collapse economies. In more than half of US states truck driver is the most common job. That doesn't account for those who are driving other vehicles. The gig economy is made up of people who are barely holding onto the bottom wrung of the economic ladder and quite a few of those people would be put out of work by autonomous driving.

Historically the US has had more of a sink or swim attitude about workers than many other developed countries, so the autonomous driving laws might be more open here than many other countries, at least at first. Many states might go back to requiring drivers in all vehicles even if autonomous to keep people employed. At that point, the economics of autonomous vehicles isn't as attractive. Additionally the young in the US are much more interested in something more akin to European democratic socialism and they will be pushing for better employment over automation.
 
I can't predict the future or what they will do with new hardware but I can say with certainty the hardware and sensors that currency on the cars are not capable of anything but level 2 driver assist which is consistent with what they have told regulators. If FSD is level 4/5 then it's nto possible unless they upgrade the sensors to be self cleaning among many other issues. So I guess as long as you keep your FSD expectations in line you won't be disappointed. I do feel it's disengenous at the very least to keep selling it and saying it will drive itself some day which it isn't even being designed to do such a thing.
You can definitely not "say that with certainty". Self cleaning cameras are a trivial matter compared to autonomy. That's a weird thing to focus on.