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What if Tesla would give P85D owners free ludicrous update?

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The money Tesla receives for the ludicrous upgrade will not significantly change Tesla's financial position, so I don't see that as an impetus for a class action lawsuit. If a firm thinks it's a valid case they know Tesla has the funds to pay. My guess is there would be some settlement which would cost Tesla much less per vehicle.

I'm not that knowledgeable about how class action suits work, but my thinking was that Tesla would have had to have collected the money from those owners who paid for the the Ludicrous upgrade before a law firm could try to make those owners part of a class and sue to get those funds (and possibly other damages on top of those) back. Once there are a few thousand owners who have paid $6000 or more each for the upgrade, there are a few thousand potential class members, with very clear damages of, at a minimum, the amount they paid for the upgrade.

If I have some aspect of this wrong, I am certainly willing to be better informed.
 
The point I've been making for a while now, in a number of threads, is that I think once a few thousand people have paid for the Ludicrous upgrade, the class action lawsuit will follow, because some law firm somewhere will see the big money that has been paid, that will then be sitting in Tesla's coffers just waiting for someone to go after it, and they will do exactly that. So since that is such a likely scenario, Tesla could do so much better by giving away the Ludicrous upgrade to affected P85D purchasers, and reaping the benefits of some incredible press at the same time.

Below is a relevant excerpt of one of my other posts on this:
Here's what will happen if they give the Ludicrous free:
1) There will immediately be doubts that the option is worth $10000. If Tesla can offer it for free, people will speculate that it's not really worth that much money (even now with the $5000 there is already similar speculation).
2) It can be taken as admission of fault and be the actual trigger point for a false advertising lawsuit. Keep in mind, if Tesla is actually at fault for false advertising (I don't think they are, but some people certainly feel they are), offering Ludicrous for free does not let them escape from that. The actual remedy for a false advertising suit would include buyback of all the cars affected, simply giving Ludicrous for free would not be the end remedy.

Right now the $5000 discount can be interpreted to just be a discount for people who missed out.

The other thing to keep in mind is that starting in May 2015, Tesla removed any references to 691hp from their site already. The other thing to keep in mind is we don't know yet what power Ludicrous makes (lower, the same, or higher than 691hp?).
 
Here's what will happen if they give the Ludicrous free:
1) There will immediately be doubts that the option is worth $10000. If Tesla can offer it for free, people will speculate that it's not really worth that much money (even now with the $5000 there is already similar speculation).
2) It can be taken as admission of fault and be the actual trigger point for a false advertising lawsuit. Keep in mind, if Tesla is actually at fault for false advertising (I don't think they are, but some people certainly feel they are), offering Ludicrous for free does not let them escape from that. The actual remedy for a false advertising suit would include buyback of all the cars affected, simply giving Ludicrous for free would not be the end remedy.

Right now the $5000 discount can be interpreted to just be a discount for people who missed out.

The other thing to keep in mind is that starting in May 2015, Tesla removed any references to 691hp from their site already. The other thing to keep in mind is we don't know yet what power Ludicrous makes (lower, the same, or higher than 691hp?).

To your point #1, Tesla basically all but admitted that the feature isn't worth $10,000 with the talk about margins on the lower vs high end vehicles. (I don't feel like finding exact quotes, but listen to the earnings report call)
To point #2 I agree with the reasoning here on why they will never offer the upgrade for free, even though I'm firmly in the yes-it-was-false-advertising group. (I posted similar logic a while back)

I'm also not convinced the upgrade delivers 691 HP anyway, but I think it would be close enough to be within a reasonable margin of error.
 
I'm not that knowledgeable about how class action suits work, but my thinking was that Tesla would have had to have collected the money from those owners who paid for the the Ludicrous upgrade before a law firm could try to make those owners part of a class and sue to get those funds (and possibly other damages on top of those) back. Once there are a few thousand owners who have paid $6000 or more each for the upgrade, there are a few thousand potential class members, with very clear damages of, at a minimum, the amount they paid for the upgrade.

If I have some aspect of this wrong, I am certainly willing to be better informed.

I don't think purchasers of ludicrous would have a case, I think those who bought the P85D advertised with HP it never had might.

2) It can be taken as admission of fault and be the actual trigger point for a false advertising lawsuit. Keep in mind, if Tesla is actually at fault for false advertising (I don't think they are, but some people certainly feel they are), offering Ludicrous for free does not let them escape from that. The actual remedy for a false advertising suit would include buyback of all the cars affected, simply giving Ludicrous for free would not be the end remedy.

My thinking is similar, though a cash settlement may suffice instead of a buyback. However I am not a lawyer so I'm just speculating.

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At some point it might make sense to offer the buyback for the people who bought the car for the horsepower figure. This way they could get move on.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-09-03-carbuyback_x.htm


This is what I would expect would happen with Tesla:

Those who tell Mazda they will keep their cars get free scheduled maintenance for the four-year, 50,000-mile warranty period, plus $500. Buyers who don't contact Mazda get nothing.

Thirty-one owners have asked for their money back, says Mazda spokesman Jeremy Barnes.
 
Here's what will happen if they give the Ludicrous free:
1) There will immediately be doubts that the option is worth $10000. If Tesla can offer it for free, people will speculate that it's not really worth that much money (even now with the $5000 there is already similar speculation).

That may be true. But people --KNOW-- the Premium Interior isn't worth $3500 (or whatever Tesla is charging for it these days) and they buy it anyway. (I did.) There will always be people who want the absolute best model--the top of the line--and they will pay for it.


2) It can be taken as admission of fault and be the actual trigger point for a false advertising lawsuit. Keep in mind, if Tesla is actually at fault for false advertising (I don't think they are, but some people certainly feel they are), offering Ludicrous for free does not let them escape from that. The actual remedy for a false advertising suit would include buyback of all the cars affected, simply giving Ludicrous for free would not be the end remedy.

Right now the $5000 discount can be interpreted to just be a discount for people who missed out.

This is without question an issue. wk057 raised this one as well. I certainly recognize it as a thorny situation. But here's my take on it.

Frankly, I think if a suit happens, Tesla loses. There really is already enough evidence stacked up against them that they really can't win. So while giving away the update for free --could-- be seen as an admission of guilt, I don't think that really matters a whole heck of a lot. One reason for that is that the update essentially corrects the damages from the false advertising. Once all the owners have the update, what damages are there? Is there enough there for some law firm to spend the time and effort to go after? Again, I have no experience in this area. I'm just using common sense and business sense. But it would seem a judge could easily look at the facts and agree that Tesla misled customers, but has since made them whole. Tesla would argue they had done their best, come up short, so then had corrected the situation as best they could, and that no one who was misled has been damaged. Any punitive damages on top of that, based on such a massive gesture of good will by Tesla, would likely be small. I think there's a pretty good chance that knowing the likely outcome, no lawfirm would even bother.

And on top of this, by giving away the update Tesla generates a massive amount of free advertising and good will. If the false advertising suit comes anyway, Tesla just keeps pointing to the grand gesture, saying, "We thought we could do this, and when we couldn't, we made it right." The public will accept that, and more good press may even be generated.

On the other hand, if Tesla continues with their current approach, and a class action suit eventually happens, even if they somehow manage to defend it, which I don't see happening, the bad press and damaged image will still be very costly. And if they were to lose such a suit, they'd be far, far worse off than if they just gave away the upgrades now.

Unless Tesla really believes there just won't be a suit, I don't see how they can make any decision other than to give the Ludicrous upgrade away to those affected by the misleading numbers on the website and to those who ordered when the note about "improved performance at high speed" was on the website.

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I don't think purchasers of ludicrous would have a case, I think those who bought the P85D advertised with HP it never had might.

The thousands of Ludicrous upgrade buyers I've been referring to would be the ones that bought the P85D advertised with HP it never had.

I'm saying this group (along with the group that purchased when the "high speed performance improvement" note was on the website) have a strong case. Many may not have any interest in pursuing anything, which is fine. But once they have paid for the upgrade, and a lawfirm realizes that they are potentially part of a damaged class, even if the majority of the owners don't want to take action, the lawfirm only needs to find a few who do to get a class qualified, right?
 
My thinking is similar, though a cash settlement may suffice instead of a buyback. However I am not a lawyer so I'm just speculating.
Good point on that. A lot of false advertisement suits are settled for far less than what a full buyback would cost. All the lawyers bringing the suit care about is getting a sizable lawyer fee, they don't really care about getting the maximum payout for the people affected.
 
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One huge difference between this situation and the Mazda case is that Mazda didn't come out, shortly after not being able to deliver on the promised HP, and offer an upgrade for $6000+ (with installation) that would deliver the originally promised HP. Tesla did. Another huge difference is the magnitude of the discrepancy. A 5% discrepancy is relatively small. A 20% (or more) discrepancy is not.

While a lost suit could see Tesla having to offer to buy back cars, it would seem likely that another option they would have to offer would be to provide the upgrade for free (or to refund the price paid for the upgrade if it had already been purchased.) This wasn't part of the Mazda settlement because it wasn't an option.
 
I love how we are positioning that this upgrade should be "free" or not...while I whole heartedly believe that they WAY overstated (yes I know...Tesla overstated...so weird right?!).

Im getting a little wrapped around the electric vehicle axel hearing that word "free" tossed around). Really, I want to point out first that this is for a very small portion of the TM fleet. This production run is small because the car itself is their premium offering that they charged a premium price for...So, in my mind no added cost is very much the right thing to do. This whole sub 3 second ability was marketed AS PEOPLE WERE BUYING THE CAR and it was a no doubt a factor in ones decision making process - otherwise why mention it at all.

I recall paying $141,000.00 for the car AND, not 90 days later they offering the EXACT same car for less money because of the merging of some of the options (like dual chargers). I say this to remind everyone that they don't lock down any specs on these cars for this exact reason - so they can change it as needed and not be held accountable. What if they had decided to completely change the multi-function screen that everyone loves...There is no hard spec on anything so the customer is left with that possibility as long as they choose to do business like this and we give them our money.

This whole ludicrous thing is systemic of a 'ludicrous' PR machine that Tesla uses to promote things that they have either no intention of or no line of sight on how they will actually do it.
 
This is without question an issue. wk057 raised this one as well. I certainly recognize it as a thorny situation. But here's my take on it.

Frankly, I think if a suit happens, Tesla loses. There really is already enough evidence stacked up against them that they really can't win. So while giving away the update for free --could-- be seen as an admission of guilt, I don't think that really matters a whole heck of a lot
...
Unless Tesla really believes there just won't be a suit, I don't see how they can make any decision other than to give the Ludicrous upgrade away to those affected by the misleading numbers on the website and to those who ordered when the note about "improved performance at high speed" was on the website.
I think the main problem is you are already making a judgement that Tesla will lose for sure if such a suit is brought against them. But put yourself in Tesla and Tesla's lawyers' shoes (which ultimately would make the decision).
1) There is no indication yet such a lawsuit will occur.
2) Tesla's lawyers will never say there is a lawsuit they will lose for sure. In fact lawyers tend to be biased to say the chances of winning is higher than losing if they want you as a client.
3) Something that can be interpreted as admission of fault can be used against them in court, so Tesla will definitely try to avoid that. It may not turn out that important, but no one knows that.
 
3) Something that can be interpreted as admission of fault can be used against them in court, so Tesla will definitely try to avoid that. It may not turn out that important, but no one knows that.

Removal of the 691 HP number from the website. Admission of fault?
Reverting other models away from the "motor power" nonsense advertising back to real world numbers while further inflating the P85D numbers with no aggregate value available. Admission of fault?
The existance of Ludicrous mode and the numbers surrounding it in the first place. Admission of fault?

I could go on, but I think the ice is pretty thin in here as it is. The lawyers will bring the sledgehammers and shatter the thin ice if the time comes, that's for sure.
 
One huge difference between this situation and the Mazda case is that Mazda didn't come out, shortly after not being able to deliver on the promised HP, and offer an upgrade for $6000+ (with installation) that would deliver the originally promised HP.

Isn't it actually beyond the originally advertised HP? It's certainly beyond the originally advertised performance, so I don't think it could be considered simply bringing the car up to the original spec, since it goes beyond that.
 
Isn't it actually beyond the originally advertised HP? It's certainly beyond the originally advertised performance, so I don't think it could be considered simply bringing the car up to the original spec, since it goes beyond that.

If it delivers all Tesla says it will then yes, it will be more than the original 691 HP that was promised. There seems to be some dissension among the well-informed (meaning people other than me) as to whether or not even with the upgrade the car will really make 691 HP. I believe wk057 is skeptical, but believes it will probably at least get close. I think sorka's position is that there is no way the car does a 10.9 second quarter mile without something very close to the new stated HP, so either it will have it (or be close) or not do a 10.9 second quarter mile.

My point about using the upgrade to "right the wrong", though still holds. There's nothing wrong with Tesla delivering more than what was originally promised, as they have apparently done with the 85D. If a simple solution to the "you didn't provide the advertised 691 HP" problem is available, and it provides 720 or 750 HP, what judge is going to not see that as an acceptable resolution to right the wrong? We're not talking about something that's worth some huge percentage of what the car is worth. It's not as if Tesla would be giving people 30 or 40% more overall car than they paid for. The entire upgrade is to cost in the range of $6000+, with installation. At a minimum, about 2/3 of that would be taking the car from the HP shortfall to where it was supposed to be. So at the most, the people getting the free upgrade would be getting a "bonus" benefit of something worth in the neighborhood of $2000 (if the car makes the full 762 HP.) That's on a $120,000-$140,000 car, so it's well under 2%. I really don't see a judge, or whomever decides these things having a problem with that.
 
When the P90D came out, every internet article and video touted the 691 hp figure. It's now impossible to find the hp rating for the P90D+L.

I assume you mean "When the P85D came out"...

But yeah, it is interesting that they have no new rating for the P90D that tops the P85D rating.
 
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