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What is a J3068 charger?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by PatD, Apr 22, 2015.

  1. PatD

    PatD Member

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    So I stopped at the Newark, DE I-95 rest stop because I wanted to test out the supercharger (No longer an SC virgin - that was amazing!)

    Anyway, I met up with a friend with a BMW i3. Talk about being relegated to no man's land. The generic charges are in the middle of the truck area. Sucks to be them!

    So while I was hanging out with him, we noticed a new charging spot that hadn't been hooked up yet. Just the sign and pedestal were there. See below. Never heard of a J3068 and I'm not finding anything on Google. Anyone? Anyone? The parking spot said EV charging 3 phase.

    2015-04-21 18.23.54.jpg
     
  2. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    #2 FlasherZ, Apr 22, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2015
    It's a 3-phase coupler for AC charging. 277V * 80A per phase * 3 ph = 66 kW, and it appears to be the same as the EU IEC 62196 connector (based on the sign). The standard is still a work-in-process, so I think this is likely to be a prototype.

    Presumably, they'd design it so an EU Tesla could plug into this connector and could charge at 22 kW (since the chargers are only 32A per phase in Model S).
     
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  3. pgiralt

    pgiralt Supporting Member

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    The plug depicted on the sign looks like a Mennekes Type 2 plug which I thought was only used in Europe.
     
  4. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    J3068 (WIP) Electric Vehicle Power Transfer System Using a Three-phase Capable Coupler - SAE International

    SAE J3068 | www.openchargealliance.org.nl
     
  5. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    My guess is that this is for electric buses, or other fleet vehicles. Interesting that there is interest in this - at that power level, wouldn't some DC charging standard be better?
     
  6. RiverBrick

    RiverBrick Active Member

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    #6 RiverBrick, Apr 22, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015
    That was my guess too. I have to upload photos of a plug i saw for a plug-in hybrid ferry. The manufacturer hasn't responded to my replies for technical specs, I guess they figure I'm not in the market for a ship.
     
  7. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    Yes, it's why you probably won't find anything appear beyond 80A on AC. It's a big waste to have a bunch of big chargers distributed in every single vehicle; put the chargers at the charging points.

    I have a slightly different guess. I suspect this is the way to shoehorn the IEC 62196 standard into the US, in an effort to try and create a global standard based on Mennekes (which is a better connector design than J1772 but is still rather horrible from a customer experience perspective). But maybe I'm just a bit cynical today. :)
     
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  8. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  9. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    #9 FlasherZ, Apr 23, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2015
    I wouldn't be surprised if they are.

    I'm conflicted on whether we really need that in the US, given the availability of high-current L-L split-phase and lack of three phase infrastructure in many/most places.

    But having a standard is good, I suppose. I just wish it was more elegant and user friendly. I'm a big fan of the Tesla02 design, it's just elegant and hard to screw up. Even my 6-year-old could plug the car in when he was 5. I know he can't do that with CHAdeMO or J1772 (because of the round connector w key - remember old DIN plugs, "spin 'till you get it in"), and I think he'd have a problem lining everything up on a Mennekes to get it to fit right. It's better for orientation because it's not symmetrically-round, but it requires that you insert it into the connector while keeping it straight - no rotation, no vertical or horizontal angles. The rounded edges of Tesla's receptacle combined with the shape allows the connector to orient as you're pushing it in.

    It's one of those things that Tesla doesn't trumpet, but it's an elegant design that should be called out, like the work apple did with Lightning and what USB3c is doing.
     
  10. arnis

    arnis Member

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    I see no advantages going over 20kW AC, private car or bus/truck. In terms of multiple vehicles (at least 3)
    I see little advantages to give 3 phases for each vehicle rather than 1 phase per one vehicle. All 3
    phases can be in use if there are at least 3 vehicles.
    AFAIK most AC to DC chargers for EVs in the world are limited to 265V between neutral and phase.
    If I remember correctly it is due to common semiconductors and what is their maximum voltage.

    It's very easy to change AC voltage from 277V to 240V. Much cheaper than making new kind of onboard chargers.

    Keep in mind that DC station that handles 66kW DC doesn't cost more than 66kW onboard charger.
    In terms of fleet charging it is possible to have one charger for multiple vehicles. Vehicles connected in the evening
    and charger shuffles according to needs automatically.
     
  11. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    There is already some discussion about this in the Charging Standards sub-forum here:
    J3068 - 3 Phase A/C Charging for North America

    It has been pointed out that some electric shuttle buses have 60kW on-board chargers. The standard allegedly goes up to 165kW with higher voltages and the possibility of the EVSE to have multiple line voltages available that can be selected by signaling from the vehicle.
     
  12. arnis

    arnis Member

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    Why do they have that onboard charger? Is it using the same onboard inverter that is used for motor?
    Same method is used by Renault Zoe. This is why this small city EV has "43kW" onboard charger.
    Yes, Zoe can accept more than twice as much AC power compared to any Tesla.
    Also this allows higher input voltage than 265V as motor is driven at much higher voltage than that.
     
  13. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    The selection of the on-board charger must have had to do with the planned routes and energy consumption. My understanding is that the Mountain View Community Shuttle is plugged in for an hour or so during lunchtime and overnight. If the overnight charge is not enough to run the whole day, then they must make up the difference during the limited hours available at lunchtime. The shuttle has no DC charging capability.
     
  14. arnis

    arnis Member

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    All vehicles have DC-charging capability. It requires direct connection instead of indirect.
    Even ICE vehicles can be charged with DC power.

    If there would be 2 shuttles parked for the night, it would be cheaper to have one 50kW CCS station.
    Rather than having two stand-alone onboard chargers on those vehicles.
    If 50kW is not enough then 62.5kW CCS station. Or 100kW. Doesn't matter.

    The only rational explanation is 2in1 inverter-charger.
     
  15. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    In order to charge by DCFC you must implement the charger protocol and integrate with the BMS to ensure that the DC current pushed into the battery by the external charging station is safe and within the parameters of the battery chemistry. This is a significant development effort that is probably not practical for these conversion-like vehicles.

    If you want to charge multiple vehicles overnight, unattended, then the number of chargers required is the same whether you have on-board or external chargers.
     
  16. arnis

    arnis Member

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    Did you mean the same protocol that is used by the onboard charger? It's the same software. CC-CV with 100ms response rate.

    Incorrect. One off-board DC-charger for all vehicles. Charging sequentially for example. Though there must be as many plugs as there are vehicles. All plugs connected to the same charger. Charger does the switching.
     
  17. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    Supporting DCFC across all the commercially available chargers is a huge task. One example is how long it took Tesla to debug and release the CHAdeMO adapter. Even though there's a standard, some of the chargers installed in the field do very strange things.

    Which commercially available DCFC solution has multiple plugs and can automatically charge multiple vehicles simultaneously or sequentially?
     
  18. arnis

    arnis Member

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    AFAIK, all of them. If there is one vehicle connected to ChaDeMo and one at CCS, the second one will be at stand by until the first one has charged up. Some may switch power during first vehicle ramping down, that depends on how many power modules are there and programming.

    The one in my country has ChaDeMo and Type2 AC. Due to grid limitations, Type2 is also limited by software until ChaDeMo vehicle ramps down. Maximum current draw is what is preset to each charger unit. And that is according to main circuit breaker which is usually dependant on grid connection.
     
  19. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    The key point in my statement was "automatically". None of the stations I've seen can do this in an automatic and unattended manner. I'm not saying it's not possible to build one, I'm just saying that I don't think there is a fleet oriented DCFC commercially available today that can charge multiple vehicles in parallel or sequentially while unattended.
     
  20. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    Doen't the Superchargers do that?
    My understanding is that the Supercharger outlets are paired with two vehicles connected to a single DCFC station. The two vehicles are charged in parallel with priority given to the first to plug in and the second tapers up as the first tapers down.
     
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