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What is considered a "long trip" when considering charging to 100%?

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unless its an NMC battery keeping the car at 100% doesnt hurt the car nearly as bad as tesla makes it out to be.
Where do Tesla make it out to be very bad?

In the forums, there is a lot of rumors that is not what Tesla say. For example they do not say that you should not leave the car at 100% for long.

The <90% daily and >90% for trips is probably because it save a lot of cyclic aging.

As for the OP question Tesla say if you need more than 90% its ok to set the limit higher.

If you need the full range (i.e. 100%) of your battery for a long-distance trip, you can increase the limit to the ‘Trip’ range (>90%) as necessary.
 
depends on the battery, NCA and NMC batteries should really be avoided to be stored at above 60% (so for Teslas thats above 56%ish displayed SOC), unless you store at or above 90%. Worst SOC is 80%. For daily medium distance driving 80% is still ok, because the car doesnt sit much at 80% and you get a cycling benefit of charging only to 80% instead of 90%. For NMC this effect is slightly less pronounced I think.

LPO batteries should be stored at 100%. Good for calibration but also protects against degradation.
According to this chart, charging to 100% and let it sit there would seem to be better than charging to 80% and let it sit there.
Which is opposite of what everyone is saying... "don't let the car sit at 100% too long"

I think that chart is referring to capacity fading over time when stored (at a given SoC and temperature), not degradation.
 
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It just means "not regularly", not every day. You can charge to 100% from time to time, the important thing is not not leave it there for long.

The real question you have to ask yourself is : will I really gain any significant time by charging to 100% on that trip? If you have to stop anyway, charging to 100 instead of 90-95 will only get you a few miles farther before stopping, but you have to stop where there are superchargers anyway... Maybe that extra 5-10% won't even make a difference.
Agree. I don’t think it’s matters much to me whether it’s 90 or 100. It’s about 25 or 30 miles extra which isn’t anything. I usually charge to 100% every 4 months or so and having had the car for 3 years it’s about 10x I’ve charge to 100%. I just do it to see how much range I get.
 
To me charging to 100% means I am not coming back tonight.... I prefer to use my own electrons because they are a third the price of a supercharger. And some weekends away I can do on a single charge.
A lot is made about charging as quickly as possible....low battery and bulk charge only...but when Tesla dings your iPhone to tell you that your car is charged and you may incur penalty charges...all before the waitress has brought you your coffees...then you realize that speed of charging isn’t everything
 
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According to this chart,

I think that chart is referring to capacity fading over time when stored (at a given SoC and temperature), not degradation.

I do not know what chart you refer to.

Battery degradation is divided into two subparts:

- Calendar aging
- Cyclic aging

Both is degradation.

During the first (about) 5 years, calendar aging is the main degrader of the battery for the most Tesla owner.
The average driven car has a almost neglible cyclic aging but the calendar aging is about 3-7% during the first year for most teslas.

100% is more or less the same as 80% when it comes to calendar aging.
We see some research reports showing the worst case at 80%. But this is not all research reports, and it is not known if the batteries was tesla NCA cells in all cases.

Manu tests show about the same degradation at 80% as at 100 or 90%.
At high cell temp, in moste cases, the degradation increases with SOC.
 
100% is more or less the same as 80% when it comes to calendar aging.
We see some research reports showing the worst case at 80%. But this is not all research reports, and it is not known if the batteries was tesla NCA cells in all cases.

Manu tests show about the same degradation at 80% as at 100 or 90%.
Perhaps charging an NCA battery to 80% instead of 100% reduces degradation not because 80% is significantly better in that respect, but because, after some driving (using 20-30% for example), the 80%-charged car is now down to 50-60%, while the 100%-charged car is now down to 70-80%, the next time it is parked for a while.
 
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According to this chart, charging to 100% and let it sit there would seem to be better than charging to 80% and let it sit there.
Which is opposite of what everyone is saying... "don't let the car sit at 100% too long"

I think that chart is referring to capacity fading over time when stored (at a given SoC and temperature), not degradation.

I think there is a lot of misinformation from tesla about this -or at least there was once upon a time. Or people just interpret anything they want into teslas gui. I.e. there is a persisting myth that tesla batteries are best stored and cycled at 50% when there is virtually no evidence thereof. Indeed every single study shows that lithium ion batteries last the longest when operated and stored at the lowest SOC possible. There was big list here before on energy manufacturers recommendation on how to store their lithium ion batteries and most advise a discharge to 0% and then freezing them or leaving them in a cool room with only one manufacturer recommending 10 or 20% for storage....


Even when the battery is stressed at i.e. 5% SOC it still has a longer life than being stressed at 80%. The acceleration limitation is imho likely there to just prevent undervolting of cells by chance as that is indeed bad for the battery.

The primary benefit of not going to 100% is not storage but that limiting max charge to 90% doubles battery life. Thats the reason the original roadster was limited to 4.15V (92%). This is further amplified on the model 3 in that there is a 4.5% buffer and most people never discharge to 0% so the usual daily cycling is actually quite low...

Because this is all BS Tesla actually stopped talking so much about 100% charges - and it also confuses LPO owners who should charge to 100%. So on newer software versions the NCA/NMC display is rather silent and just calls 90% a daily charge and 100% a trip charge and the manual doesnt really make any reference to not letting it sit at 100% or not going to 100% regularly. I am not sure if the message which warns of using 100% as a daily charge if you repeatedly charge to i.e. 95% all the time still exists.

Elon himself actually told someone on twitter but was complaining about low(er) winter range to just charge to 95% every day and it doesnt really matter that much. He advised against 100% charge because the owner wouldnt have regen.


Good graph showing you how much degradation you get from 10% cycles at varying SOC levels. As you can see the lower you cycle the battery, the better with there being a sharp decline cycling above 50%. What I also find interesting is that the 10-0% charge is still the best even though arguably they must have undervolted some batteries by accident by going to 0% every time.... perhaps even undervolting isnt as bad as we all think as long as we dont undervolt too much. They used a 2C discharge rate so thats driving a model 3 at like 200km/h....
do note that for this study they used 4.15V as 100% which corresponds to like 92% on tesla vehicles.

Either way whats becoming abundantly clear is that calender aging is WAY more important than discharge rates and recharge rates and cycles...

1-s2.0-S2666248521000093-gr3.jpg
 
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To me charging to 100% means I am not coming back tonight.... I prefer to use my own electrons because they are a third the price of a supercharger. And some weekends away I can do on a single charge.
A lot is made about charging as quickly as possible....low battery and bulk charge only...but when Tesla dings your iPhone to tell you that your car is charged and you may incur penalty charges...all before the waitress has brought you your coffees...then you realize that speed of charging isn’t everything

thats just an issue with the american way of life not being compatible with european lifestyle.

americans dont really sit down in cafes for 40min on a french motorway.... they just get a takeaway coffee and a donut. so for them stopping for 20min is perfect....europe.... not so much. its kinda balanced a bit by faster speeds causing higher consumption making 5-90% charges more necessary but the distances just arent that big.
 
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I think there is a lot of misinformation from tesla about this -or at least there was once upon a time. Or people just interpret anything they want into teslas gui. I.e. there is a persisting myth that tesla batteries are best stored and cycled at 50% when there is virtually no evidence thereof. Indeed every single study shows that lithium ion batteries last the longest when operated and stored at the lowest SOC possible. There was big list here before on energy manufacturers recommendation on how to store their lithium ion batteries and most advise a discharge to 0% and then freezing them or leaving them in a cool room with only one manufacturer recommending 10 or 20% for storage....


Even when the battery is stressed at i.e. 5% SOC it still has a longer life than being stressed at 80%. The acceleration limitation is imho likely there to just prevent undervolting of cells by chance as that is indeed bad for the battery.

The primary benefit of not going to 100% is not storage but that limiting max charge to 90% doubles battery life. Thats the reason the original roadster was limited to 4.15V (92%). This is further amplified on the model 3 in that there is a 4.5% buffer and most people never discharge to 0% so the usual daily cycling is actually quite low...

Because this is all BS Tesla actually stopped talking so much about 100% charges - and it also confuses LPO owners who should charge to 100%. So on newer software versions the NCA/NMC display is rather silent and just calls 90% a daily charge and 100% a trip charge and the manual doesnt really make any reference to not letting it sit at 100% or not going to 100% regularly. I am not sure if the message which warns of using 100% as a daily charge if you repeatedly charge to i.e. 95% all the time still exists.

Elon himself actually told someone on twitter but was complaining about low(er) winter range to just charge to 95% every day and it doesnt really matter that much. He advised against 100% charge because the owner wouldnt have regen.


Good graph showing you how much degradation you get from 10% cycles at varying SOC levels. As you can see the lower you cycle the battery, the better with there being a sharp decline cycling above 50%. What I also find interesting is that the 10-0% charge is still the best even though arguably they must have undervolted some batteries by accident by going to 0% every time.... perhaps even undervolting isnt as bad as we all think as long as we dont undervolt too much. They used a 2C discharge rate so thats driving a model 3 at like 200km/h....
do note that for this study they used 4.15V as 100% which corresponds to like 92% on tesla vehicles.

Either way whats becoming abundantly clear is that calender aging is WAY more important than discharge rates and recharge rates and cycles...

View attachment 866638
Your chart needs a bit more explaining...for example the Cycle axis...are these the equivalent of full 100% discharges/recharges?...because then 2000 is over 1,000,000 km...so the battery degradation is almost negligible
 
Your chart needs a bit more explaining...for example the Cycle axis...are these the equivalent of full 100% discharges/recharges?...because then 2000 is over 1,000,000 km...so the battery degradation is almost negligible
FCE = Full Cycles Equivalent.
Which means that in the chart each FCE is 10 (ten) cycles of 10% .

—-> Cyclic degradation is small when using small cycles.
Small cycles at low SOC = the battery lives forever.

These two points above is mantras I keep writing almost everyday here at TMC.

The test of NCA cells I ofter refer to showed 2% cyclic aging when a NCA cell was cycled with 10% cycles around 30% (25-35% SOC) for 600 FCE (6000 10% cycles).
The same cycles but around 70% SOC degraded 10%.

So 600FCE @2% loss = about 6000FCE until 20% loss.
6000 full cycles = 1.8 miljon km or so.
Or about 0.2% annual cyclic loss for the car used average miles each year (not including calendar aging).

If the SOC is bumped to 70% the degradation increase by 5 times to 1% each year (not including calendar aging)

The bigger part of almost *Any* Tesladrivers car is calendar aging.
Cyclic aging is a lesser part. This is true for five years, or more.

(The exeption is people driving like 80.000km or more each year, needing to use 90% cycles for the drive. If the car is stands with low SOC during the night and charged just before the drive, then the cyclic aging can be similar or higher than calendar aging)
 
(The exeption is people driving like 80.000km or more each year, needing to use 90% cycles for the drive. If the car is stands with low SOC during the night and charged just before the drive, then the cyclic aging can be similar or higher than calendar aging)

Why does the timing of the recharging matter for cyclic aging?

That strategy (charge up as late as possible) seems like it would be optimal for calendar aging, as the SOC would on average be lower. Is there an opposite effect for cyclic aging?

I agree with you though that for most people calendar aging is dominating, and I set my charging to recharge fairly late (but still in my utility's lowest rate period), and limit SOC max to 50% most days.
 
To get back to the original subject, for me a long trip is one where I have to recharge along the way.

By the way, on LFP batteries there is a marked plateau between 40% and 70% for calendar degradation. This means, if you want to make your battery live longer by charging only to 40%, you might as well charge it to 70%. That is the sweet spot for LFP.

But LFP batteries last long anyway, so if you don't care about your battery living much longer than 10 years, you might as well follow Tesla's simple advice to set your charging target to 100% and forget about it.

And one final bit of advice: The battery is there to serve your needs, not the other way around.
 
To get back to the original subject, for me a long trip is one where I have to recharge along the way.

By the way, on LFP batteries there is a marked plateau between 40% and 70% for calendar degradation. This means, if you want to make your battery live longer by charging only to 40%, you might as well charge it to 70%. That is the sweet spot for LFP.

But LFP batteries last long anyway, so if you don't care about your battery living much longer than 10 years, you might as well follow Tesla's simple advice to set your charging target to 100% and forget about it.

And one final bit of advice: The battery is there to serve your needs, not the other way around.

LFPs sweetspot is 100% or 90%. They initially degrade faster there than 50% but after a few years they degrade less and the 50% SOC will overtake the 100% in terms of degradation. something to do with that 100% causes more early damage which builds up the film which prevents further damage.