What is going on with those Model 3/Y Accidents in China / Paris ?

[Nabush]

Hi There,

There is a disturbing trend of crashes with Model 3 /Y losing control last few month...

First one was in Paris in december 2021...

Paris taxi firm suspends use of Tesla Model 3 cars after fatal crash

Tesla denies any technical problem with car as authorities investigate crash that killed one person and injured 20

www.theguardian.com

Second one a Tesla Model Y in China 3 month ago

Then last month here again in China, very similar to the incident which happened with the model Y few month ago :

- In all case drivers are saying the car accelerated by itself (Paris/China) and that braking did not have any effect.
- In all cases drivers are trying to avoid traffic, so they are not trying to kill themselves...
- In all cases it looks like the cars are accelerating full speed
- All cars to my knowledge were MIC (Made in China)
- In all cases no real investigation results from Tesla... Which is a little disturbing in my opinion...

Possibilities :

- Inverter failure : Not likely IMO, usually when inverters (VFD) fails they just burn and you loose all output power on async or sync ... I have yet to see a servo controller or a regular VFD fail with motor running full speed...But this may be possible....In this case normally brake power should be enough to stop the car, unless there is a brake master cylinder failure at the same time...
- Brake master cylinder failure : possible but car would not accelerate. Tela uses Electric master cylinder than can apply brakes by themselves. Brake pedal will be extremely hard to press in case of failure but it should work, unless the electric assist gear brake and seize the whole master cylinder. Not sure if it is possible and should be part of considered failures in the design.
- Throttle sensor : there are normally 2 tracks for throttle sensor position. It would require the 2 track to be bad and show full throttle to get this behavior... When one is bad or discrepancy above few % this create a CEL and you have no power.
- General failure on CAN BUS throwing bad data ??
- Software bug ??

I still have hard time believing people saying that this is a driver mistake and they took the throttle for the brake for so long. The guy in Paris was a Taxi driver... On my end I could never do something like that on a 2 pedal car (I'm an decently fast AutoX and Roadcourse driver). Even on a not so skilled driver, the pedal issue would last just 1s-2s max before realizing.

I'm leaning towards something fishy guys, those incidents are too much alike ... Issue with Tesla having no communication department is that we may never know until way more incidents happen or a institution forces them to answer.

To note that Datalogs may show no issues, does not necessarly mean there isn't one.

Do we have similar stories with MIUS Tesla ?

 

[oneformula@gma]

Hi There,

There is a disturbing trend of crashes with Model 3 /Y losing control last few month...

First one was in Paris in december 2021...

Paris taxi firm suspends use of Tesla Model 3 cars after fatal crash

Tesla denies any technical problem with car as authorities investigate crash that killed one person and injured 20

www.theguardian.com

Second one a Tesla Model Y in China 3 month ago

Then last month here again in China, very similar to the incident which happened with the model Y few month ago :

- In all case drivers are saying the car accelerated by itself (Paris/China) and that braking did not have any effect.
- In all cases drivers are trying to avoid traffic, so they are not trying to kill themselves...
- In all cases it looks like the cars are accelerating full speed
- All cars to my knowledge were MIC (Made in China)
- In all cases no real investigation results from Tesla... Which is a little disturbing in my opinion...

Possibilities :

- Inverter failure : Not likely IMO, usually when inverters (VFD) fails they just burn and you loose all output power on async or sync ... I have yet to see a servo controller or a regular VFD fail with motor running full speed...But this may be possible....In this case normally brake power should be enough to stop the car, unless there is a brake master cylinder failure at the same time...
- Brake master cylinder failure : possible but car would not accelerate. Tela uses Electric master cylinder than can apply brakes by themselves. Brake pedal will be extremely hard to press in case of failure but it should work, unless the electric assist gear brake and seize the whole master cylinder. Not sure if it is possible and should be part of considered failures in the design.
- Throttle sensor : there are normally 2 tracks for throttle sensor position. It would require the 2 track to be bad and show full throttle to get this behavior... When one is bad or discrepancy above few % this create a CEL and you have no power.
- General failure on CAN BUS throwing bad data ??
- Software bug ??

I still have hard time believing people saying that this is a driver mistake and they took the throttle for the brake for so long. The guy in Paris was a Taxi driver... On my end I could never do something like that on a 2 pedal car (I'm an decently fast AutoX and Roadcourse driver). Even on a not so skilled driver, the pedal issue would last just 1s-2s max before realizing.

I'm leaning towards something fishy guys, those incidents are too much alike ... Issue with Tesla having no communication department is that we may never know until way more incidents happen or a institution forces them to answer.

To note that Datalogs may show no issues, does not necessarly mean there isn't one.

Do we have similar stories with MIUS Tesla ?

it is none of your guesses. this has been going on since cars were invented. check out the yellow journalism story on audi a few decades back from 60 Minutes.

this is caused by the driver hitting the wrong pedal. end of story.

 

[Hamato]

Yea, this happens a lot on other cars as well. Its just people pressing the accelerator thinking its the breaks then panicking. I know in the case of one of the Chinese ones he tries to top the car by short pressing the park button on the right stalk, but for emergencies you need to hold it down. That is kind of hard to do in a panic. Most people don't even know about the long press anyways, so you could blame tesla for not making that info more known. You could also blame tesla for not making it more intuitive (somehow?), but you can also place blame on the driver because they didn't read the manual. But yea, this happens to every make and model, its just that when its a tesla it makes the news.

 

[oneformula@gma]

Yea, this happens a lot on other cars as well. Its just people pressing the accelerator thinking its the breaks then panicking. I know in the case of one of the Chinese ones he tries to top the car by short pressing the park button on the right stalk, but for emergencies you need to hold it down. That is kind of hard to do in a panic. Most people don't even know about the long press anyways, so you could blame tesla for not making that info more known. You could also blame tesla for not making it more intuitive (somehow?), but you can also place blame on the driver because they didn't read the manual. But yea, this happens to every make and model, its just that when its a tesla it makes the news.

"Most people don't even know about the long press anyways..."

All cars, Tesla or otherwise, that have an electronic e-brake/parking brake, require a long press/selection

 

[Hamato]

All cars, Tesla or otherwise, that have an electronic e-brake/parking brake, require a long press/selection

I think that's the part most people don't know, especially older people and/or people who aren't "car" people. If there are no parking brake petal, handbrake, or obvious dedicated button (even the dedicated button is hit or miss) there's no other way of stopping a car in an emergency. But again not really a tesla problem, just people not reading what they should. I don't know if its a part of any training in the US to always know how to egange the ebreak, but im sure as hell it wasn't taught to me when I was 18.

 

[XPsionic]

Some of those china crashes had been investigated, turns out the drivers stepped on the accelerator pedal fully instead of the brake. Wouldn't make the news if they were in a gas car.

Tesla exonerated in another supposed 'brake failure' case in China

The evidence has once again proven that claims of brake failure in Tesla cars in China are false. An investigation into a Model Y crash in November that left two people dead and three others […]

driveteslacanada.ca

I do have a theory how one pedal driving could make drivers with prior driving experience brain fart into a terrible mistake of wrong pedal application.

Physically, these drivers have associated slight pedal pressure + the car slowing down = I'm pressing on the brake pedal

In a normal car people are used to applying pressure onto the brake pedal to feel the car decelerating. In one pedal drive, the driver could be slowing down while applying light pressure to the accelerator pedal during partial regen deceleration. Thus in a moment of confusion, panic, or brain fart, some people would end up pressing harder onto the accelerator while wanting to slow down more than they already are.

 

[GregD60]

When people hit the accelerator pedal and think they're hitting the brake pedal, I think the faster the car accelerates the faster the driver tends to panic. Since Teslas accelerate quicker than most other cars, more drivers tend to panic than in slower cars.

 

[Nabush]

Some of those china crashes had been investigated, turns out the drivers stepped on the accelerator pedal fully instead of the brake. Wouldn't make the news if they were in a gas car.

Tesla exonerated in another supposed 'brake failure' case in China

The evidence has once again proven that claims of brake failure in Tesla cars in China are false. An investigation into a Model Y crash in November that left two people dead and three others […]

driveteslacanada.ca

I do have a theory how one pedal driving could make drivers with prior driving experience brain fart into a terrible mistake of wrong pedal application.

Physically, these drivers have associated slight pedal pressure + the car slowing down = I'm pressing on the brake pedal

In a normal car people are used to applying pressure onto the brake pedal to feel the car decelerating. In one pedal drive, the driver could be slowing down while applying light pressure to the accelerator pedal during partial regen deceleration. Thus in a moment of confusion, panic, or brain fart, some people would end up pressing harder onto the accelerator while wanting to slow down more than they already are.

That is a good news, though I cannot understand how you can press gas pedal instead of brake for so long. Seems absolutely insane to me... Maybe your theory about one pedal driving is a valid point....

 

[drtimhill]

In a normal car people are used to applying pressure onto the brake pedal to feel the car decelerating. In one pedal drive, the driver could be slowing down while applying light pressure to the accelerator pedal during partial regen deceleration. Thus in a moment of confusion, panic, or brain fart, some people would end up pressing harder onto the accelerator while wanting to slow down more than they already are.

It's possible, of course, but I'd argue the opposite is equally probable. People who use one pedal driving have muscle memory for "lift foot off accelerator to slow down", so their first reaction is going to be to lift the foot off, not slam it down. In either case, as others have noted, this is "Audi Syndrome" all over again.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

If the brake pedal was installed in any of those cars, it was not used. There's no other explanation.

Teslas are a bit unique in several ways however:

1. The one-pedal routine could conceivably become a little too routine
2. There is little apparent difference between a stopped Tesla and a parked Tesla thanks to the lack of engine/gearshift/keys/parking brake combined with the persistent radio/HVAC/lights
3. The reduced tactile feedback of the electronic gearshift can lead to errors in a panic
4. The emergency brake is unusual and many drivers are unaware of its presence, nevermind how to engage it
5. The rapid acceleration can induce more panic than most cars

Recall the CHP officer who killed his entire family and nearly bankrupt Toyota because in a panic he forgot all the basics of how to drive a car. He couldn't pull the floor mat off the accelerator pedal, he couldn't figure out how to shift the conventional gearshift into neutral, he couldn't figure out how to hold the button to turn off the engine, and all the while, he never even pressed the brake pedal hard enough to stop the car. Driver error is real, and it will always be an issue.

 

[stopcrazypp]

It's possible, of course, but I'd argue the opposite is equally probable. People who use one pedal driving have muscle memory for "lift foot off accelerator to slow down", so their first reaction is going to be to lift the foot off, not slam it down. In either case, as others have noted, this is "Audi Syndrome" all over again.

Yeah, I'm skeptical one pedal makes this any more probable. Pressing the wrong pedal has happened for decades already to ICE cars, so it's not something unique to cars with one pedal modes. The person thinks they are pressing on the brake pedal and when it doesn't stop the car, they only press harder. If they get into a panic and all their attention is on steering the car (especially in the incidents above where they aren't on an open highway), they might never get a chance to rethink and consider whatever pedal they were pressing is not the brake pedal.

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

It's a very distinct and deliberate motion to move one's foot from the accelerator over to the brake, yet people somehow forget to do it. It's not hard to imagine how less practice might make it even easier to forget.

 

[stopcrazypp]

It's a very distinct and deliberate motion to move one's foot from the accelerator over to the brake, yet people somehow forget to do it. It's not hard to imagine how less practice might make it even easier to forget.

It has nothing to do with forgetting to do it. It's disconnect with your brain calling to execute a movement and the movement being performed accurately. A decline in this ability increases as people age. Your brain still knows the movement and commands it (so it was not forgotten), but it doesn't end up being executed correctly while your brain thinks it was.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166432822002443

 

[Unclepaul]

Tesla has over 4 million cars on the road. Crashes are to be expected. This is amplified by journalist identifying them as Teslas to get attention.

Not sure that Tesla vehicles are any more subject to crashes and driver error than other brands. Statistics show that under FSD they have fewer than average crashes.

 

[E90alex]

It's a very distinct and deliberate motion to move one's foot from the accelerator over to the brake, yet people somehow forget to do it. It's not hard to imagine how less practice might make it even easier to forget.

It’s easy for the brain to go into panic/reflex mode in emergency or unexpected situations instead of logical thinking.

There are many situations in an ICE car where you would normally “cover the brakes” to be more cautious but you can’t do that in a Tesla. Eg creeping along in a parking lot or coasting slowly down crowded or narrow residential street etc. And reflex is to slam on the brake pedal if something jumps out at you, except your brain forgets you’re not “covering the brake” but instead your foot is on the throttle.

 

[father_of_6]

Yeah, I watched that video of the driver in China... the car almost came to a stop first, and then *slowly* began moving forward (to the surprise of the driver).

If there was a mechanical / electrical failure that caused this, I would expect that car to hit 60mph in just a few seconds (as we know our cars can do).

Instead, it was a slow start. In my opinion, this really matches the "brainfart" narrative - the driver likely felt like their foot was on the brake pedal... "Uh oh, it's not stopping... press harder".

 

[Clover]

People hitting the gas instead of the brake totally happens and when it does it goes bad fast. I personally was in a crash where this occurred while I was teaching drivers ed on a private driving range a long time back.

We were working on simple dynamics and using just steering to avoid a crash. The student was constantly on the brakes while turning, so I jumped in to help them with the exercise an explained we were trying to use all our traction to turn and avoid a crash in front of us. They knew they was not supposed to be hitting the brakes while turning and had focused on keeping their foot off the brake. However, when they turned, they pushed the pedal their foot was over, which was the throttle this time. When it did not slow them down like they expected, they pushed it harder and floored it. I darted for the wheel as they panicked but my seatbelt stopped me from too sudden a movement from me. It was a Honda Odyssey, so not hand parking brake for me. I barely got the column shifter bumped into neutral with my fingertips as we sped off the driving range and through a fence. The thing about driving through a fence you never realize until you do it, you have no idea what was on the other side which is terrifying. Unfortunately for us, it was a pile of landscaping boulders which brought us to a very abrupt halt while I was leaning halfway out the seat reaching for the wheel. The student looks over at me and blurts out over and over, "the brakes didn't work!" It has been a long time ago but still super vivid to me. Somehow, I very calmly reached over and shut the engine off, since it was banging off the redline, and asked, what pedal is your foot currently on? One of my coworkers was there in a flash cursing up a storm because of both the crash, and the fact as he ran to the crash, he stepping on a nail from the fence we ran through which went into his foot and caused him to trip while running at full speed.

We were all scared to death of the parents when they got there and I had to explain it to them since I was in the van. I had been going over and over with how to handle the conversation in my head. We had the student inside calming down when dad got there and he went right to the van which was still in the boulders and was obviously totaled. He was super pale and shaking and he just looked over at me and said, "No ####ing Airbags!. No ####ing Airbags! ####ing 5 star safety my ###". I got out that their kid was okay and is just inside calming down. I explained what happened as we walked over and he did not say another word. I thought he was furious at us and did not know what to say so I just kept reassuring him his kid was okay. Gave them space once they were together and I ended up talking to the cops explaining it all and then got sent in to have my back checked. Went to work a few days later and expected trouble since I was in the car with a student as they crashed and we were by far the most expensive program in the state which prided ourselves on being the best. Turns out, the police told the dad I may have saved their kid's life by getting the car into neutral and we were lucky it was not worse. The parents were insisting to have me as their kid's private coach when their kid came back. Sure enough, only a few weeks later I had the student back and they had a hand written note thanking me and we got through the two days without another issue. Except, at one point when we were all walking the course, someone pointed to the new section of fence and asked, "What happened there?" My student completely deadpan said, "me" and everyone laughed while I cringed. They seemed unfazed though I was not.

 

[ODWms]

If the brake pedal was installed in any of those cars, it was not used. There's no other explanation.

Teslas are a bit unique in several ways however:

1. The one-pedal routine could conceivably become a little too routine
2. There is little apparent difference between a stopped Tesla and a parked Tesla thanks to the lack of engine/gearshift/keys/parking brake combined with the persistent radio/HVAC/lights
3. The reduced tactile feedback of the electronic gearshift can lead to errors in a panic
4. The emergency brake is unusual and many drivers are unaware of its presence, nevermind how to engage it
5. The rapid acceleration can induce more panic than most cars

Recall the CHP officer who killed his entire family and nearly bankrupt Toyota because in a panic he forgot all the basics of how to drive a car. He couldn't pull the floor mat off the accelerator pedal, he couldn't figure out how to shift the conventional gearshift into neutral, he couldn't figure out how to hold the button to turn off the engine, and all the while, he never even pressed the brake pedal hard enough to stop the car. Driver error is real, and it will always be an issue.

Crazily, I’ve read of people calling 911 in some of these situations, having this situation ongoing for miles. They have the presence of mind to pick up and operate a phone during all this, but not enough to hit the actual brake, downshift, press the E brake, or even shut off the car.

 

[rpiotro]

Crazily, I’ve read of people calling 911 in some of these situations, having this situation ongoing for miles. They have the presence of mind to pick up and operate a phone during all this, but not enough to hit the actual brake, downshift, press the E brake, or even shut off the car.

Or covering up their impending murder/suicide. Yes that has happened.

 

[Msjulie]

Even though power assisted, the brakes on Teslas (at least today) are still basically hydraulically actuated and if actually pressed, will stop the car eventually

I wonder if one pedal driving contributes in any way to people forgetting what that 'other' pedal is for, sheesh