What is going on with those Model 3/Y Accidents in China / Paris ?

[BitJam]

Tesla says Autopilot is preventing ~40 crashes per day from wrong pedal errors alone

Tesla claims Autopilot is currently preventing about 40 crashes per day just by correcting drivers pressing the wrong pedal, something...

electrek.co

Last year, NHTSA released findings from its investigation and determined that the incidents of sudden acceleration involving Tesla vehicles where drivers said that the vehicles were “accelerating by themselves” were due to user errors.​

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Following the NHTSA investigation, Tesla issued a statement claiming that there are no defects in its vehicles resulting in unintended acceleration, and that the petition with NHTSA was started by a TSLA short seller.​

 

[dhrivnak]

There have been a number of occasions where I am POSITIVE i am on the brake only, only to be alerted the car will not start as I am pressing both pedals. If I move my foot all is well. So I can totally see people accidentially pressing on the wring pedal. And if you think you are on the brake then mashing to the floor is a common reaction.

 

[jkdman123]

Recall the CHP officer who killed his entire family and nearly bankrupt Toyota because in a panic he forgot all the basics of how to drive a car. He couldn't pull the floor mat off the accelerator pedal, he couldn't figure out how to shift the conventional gearshift into neutral, he couldn't figure out how to hold the button to turn off the engine, and all the while, he never even pressed the brake pedal hard enough to stop the car. Driver error is real, and it will always be an issue.

Not entirely correct. He burned the brakes out. Witnesses recall seeing flames from the front and rear suggesting prolonged braking while the car was still trying to accelerate. Also, expecting someone to diagnose the cause of the stuck accelerator and determine that they need to pull out the floor mat while trying to dodge traffic is a little much. He wasn't familiar with the long press to shut off the car. I wouldn't have been either, given that at the time of that accident my main car was a 1997 Acura that still used an old fashioned turning key. I would fault him most on not shifting to neutral. But given the extreme level of stress he was under during that time, that's not unreasonable. People think being a cop or what not inoculates you to the effects of high-level dynamic stress. It doesn't. That only comes with routine advanced training, which is something that is sorely lacking in the VAST majority of law enforcement agencies because it's very costly and time-consuming.

It's highly unlikely that the controls of the car caused the Paris and China accidents. It's more likely that there was some form of driver error, but that could be exacerbated by some low-tech level of design flaw such as the Toyota floor mat issue.

 

[wwu123]

Crazily, I’ve read of people calling 911 in some of these situations, having this situation ongoing for miles. They have the presence of mind to pick up and operate a phone during all this, but not enough to hit the actual brake, downshift, press the E brake, or even shut off the car.

I'm scarily impressed with how long some of these people were able to keep driving with the accelerator fully pressed, as many of the Audi accidental acceleration were from a full stop very quickly into a building or other barrier. In real-life driving, there are very few situations where people fully depress the accelerator for more than 5-10 seconds straight (and I mean flooring the pedal, not just accelerating quickly). Making a pass on a two lane highway in the opposite traffic lane is the only time I ever do it for more than 5 seconds, and certainly never longer than 10.

I wonder if there can be some sort of optional opt-in mode, to prevent unintended acceleration, where if the car detects you flooring it for more than 5 seconds, it blares at you and requires you to fully release the accelerator and then mash it down again to keep going, otherwise starts coasting. If you were intending to keep accelerating, it would be just a momentary loss in acceleration; if it was unintentional acceleration, it would either start coasting, or once you lift up and sense the car slowing, maybe would jolt some cognizance into some people. Purely an opt-in setting for the car, so that those who make it a daily habit of flooring it, won't find themselves coasting when they don't want.

Wouldn't help those parking lot incidents, which are over in a second or two, but would help these long extended ones on the main roads....

 

[father_of_6]

Also, expecting someone to diagnose the cause of the stuck accelerator and determine that they need to pull out the floor mat while trying to dodge traffic is a little much.

This is why anyone with life experience (and driving experience) should know that carpeted floor mats are trouble. For that matter, I think they should become illegal. At least any thin mats. There should be a minimum thickness for floor mats in front seats.

 

[oneformula@gma]

This is why anyone with life experience (and driving experience) should know that carpeted floor mats are trouble. For that matter, I think they should become illegal. At least any thin mats. There should be a minimum thickness for floor mats in front seats.

you have a point, but your execution if flawed.

why thickness?

you are saying a certain thickness, regarless of material? or technology improvements? or weight? or having them flexible or firm? or with mounts or friction or fittings.... just thickness?

this sounds like something any gov't agency with your "I think they should become illegal" would screw up and make for really bad laws.

 

[GregD60]

This is why anyone with life experience (and driving experience) should know that carpeted floor mats are trouble. For that matter, I think they should become illegal. At least any thin mats. There should be a minimum thickness for floor mats in front seats.

Having safely driven many hundreds of thousands of miles in cars with thin carpet floor mats, I have to disagree. They just need to be retained in place in a reasonable fashion. Some floor mats have grommeted holes in them that fit in hooks from the floor, some use velcro, or something similar, to hold the floor mats in place, some are adequately retained by the shape of the footwell and the mat being designed to fit without movement. I think most problems with floor mats interfering with the pedals either occurred decades ago, or with aftermarket floor mats that had inadequate retention or locating mechanisms.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This is why anyone with life experience (and driving experience) should know that carpeted floor mats are trouble. For that matter, I think they should become illegal. At least any thin mats. There should be a minimum thickness for floor mats in front seats.

I don't think thin carpeted floor mats have to do with it. The Toyota recall was because of all weather floor mats that were stacked on top and thus were not properly secured, allowing it to slide and catch onto the accelerator pedal:

Toyota to recall floor mats in '07 Lexus and Camrys

Toyota Motor Corp will recall "all-weather" floor mats used in 2007 Lexus ES 350 and Camry vehicles due to complaints that they can slip forward and trap the accelerator pedal, U.S. highway regulators said on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

If they stuck with the carpeted one, they actually wouldn't have a problem because that one is not thick enough and doesn't have a ridge to get caught.

You can see an example of an all weather one here:

 

[father_of_6]

You're all probably right in that my statement was a bit obtuse, but it's still a problem that would benefit from legislation.

Indeed, there are thick carpeted mats as well as Velcro and grommets that don't pose the problem, and there are non-carpeted mats that do pose the problem. A bit of standards designating what's allowed and what isn't would be good.

People have died from cheap floor mats developing a fold from the forward pressure of the driver's feet. Then while driving the mat folds up and can depress the accelerator. Worse, you press your foot hard on the brake which further presses the mat down against the accelerator.

I don't think this is a matter of "legislating against stupidity". Young drivers are unlikely to know about this potential hazard. The carpeted mats that came with my M3LR were bottom of the barrel and went right in the trunk upon delivery (replaced by SUMK mats on Amazon, highly recommended).

I had a cheap carpeted mat develop a fold in a beater many years ago. Thankfully, I recognized the potential hazard right away. That car probably did 0-60 in 15 minutes... I'd poop myself if the M3LR was accelerating "on its own" by a mat. I've only had the nerve to get to 130mph and only on the ideal road for it.

Getting up to that speed or higher unexpectedly and on populated roads... not sure I could look down and sort it out, or even have the mind to think to do so.

 

[GregD60]

You're all probably right in that my statement was a bit obtuse, but it's still a problem that would benefit from legislation.

Indeed, there are thick carpeted mats as well as Velcro and grommets that don't pose the problem, and there are non-carpeted mats that do pose the problem. A bit of standards designating what's allowed and what isn't would be good.

People have died from cheap floor mats developing a fold from the forward pressure of the driver's feet. Then while driving the mat folds up and can depress the accelerator. Worse, you press your foot hard on the brake which further presses the mat down against the accelerator.

I don't think this is a matter of "legislating against stupidity". Young drivers are unlikely to know about this potential hazard. The carpeted mats that came with my M3LR were bottom of the barrel and went right in the trunk upon delivery (replaced by SUMK mats on Amazon, highly recommended).

I had a cheap carpeted mat develop a fold in a beater many years ago. Thankfully, I recognized the potential hazard right away. That car probably did 0-60 in 15 minutes... I'd poop myself if the M3LR was accelerating "on its own" by a mat. I've only had the nerve to get to 130mph and only on the ideal road for it.

Getting up to that speed or higher unexpectedly and on populated roads... not sure I could look down and sort it out, or even have the mind to think to do so.

Rather than the government passing more regulations or laws that people will just find a way to subvert or ignore, I'd rather see the government provide information about the possible hazards of floor mats, and publicize the issue.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Rather than the government passing more regulations or laws that people will just find a way to subvert or ignore, I'd rather see the government provide information about the possible hazards of floor mats, and publicize the issue.

Or educating people on what to do if the accelerator pedal gets stuck (which can happen for reasons other than floor mats).

 

[Gauss Guzzler]

The government did do its job. Floor mats are now secured in all modern cars and an interlock system ensures that motor power is always cut when the brake pedal is depressed.

My point in bringing up the Lexus CHP officer was that even the most highly trained and experienced drivers can make shockingly bad mistakes. Like the most basic thing of all - just pressing the damn brake pedal harder so that the car stops instead of tepidly riding the brakes for several minutes until they burst into flames.

And that's the real key. If the brakes are functional and the pedal is pressed, there are only 2 possible outcomes - flaming brakes from egregious driver error, or safely stopping without incident. There's no in-between.

 

[realyc]

I find the blame placed on drivers a bit excessive. Surely I agree that the most likely outcome is pedal misapplication, but does dismissing it as end of story solve the problem?

If this were an aviation accident because of misapplying the throttle, for example, we wouldn't go "oh the pilots pulled the wrong lever, end of story". We would find ways to reduce the chance of this happening again.

Given the technological advantage, it seems rather easy for Tesla to implement a feature that detects prolonged accelerator application, when significantly exceeding the speed limit on the road driven on, and just pop up an audible warning "Check pedal, perhaps you meant to brake?" That shouldn't hurt anyone, but it could really save some lives.

At the very least, the fact that one may misapply the pedals in a Tesla more likely than in other cars could be a factor that hurts Tesla sales, and road safety in general. You don't want to be hit by someone who does that.

Imagine you picking up your kid at the daycare pickup zone and some Tesla behind you step on the wrong pedal and slam into you, injuring everyone. In fact, my mom was driving my car once and was inches away from doing that, but she quickly switched pedals because I warned her, before she drove my car, about that one fatal mistake that she may make.

It does make me rethink how my own choices of getting a powerful car can affect everyone else I care about in my life. I just wish that more of these accidents can be prevented one way or another.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I find the blame placed on drivers a bit excessive. Surely I agree that the most likely outcome is pedal misapplication, but does dismissing it as end of story solve the problem?

If this were an aviation accident because of misapplying the throttle, for example, we wouldn't go "oh the pilots pulled the wrong lever, end of story". We would find ways to reduce the chance of this happening again.

Given the technological advantage, it seems rather easy for Tesla to implement a feature that detects prolonged accelerator application, when significantly exceeding the speed limit on the road driven on, and just pop up an audible warning "Check pedal, perhaps you meant to brake?" That shouldn't hurt anyone, but it could really save some lives.

Sure some features like this can be introduced to make it less likely to happen (brake interlock, obstacle aware acceleration are examples that already exist in a Tesla), but pedal misapplication has been happening literally for decades and it bears repeating it is almost always fully the fault of the driver (a brain fart so to speak). Just don't want to have it turn into a case of the driver blaming the features when it inevitably doesn't prevent a certain case (which is almost guaranteed as no feature is perfect), and lose sight that driver still bears a lot of responsibility.

At the very least, the fact that one may misapply the pedals in a Tesla more likely than in other cars could be a factor that hurts Tesla sales, and road safety in general. You don't want to be hit by someone who does that.

To make it clear, there is zero evidence Teslas are more likely to cause people to misapply the pedals.

Imagine you picking up your kid at the daycare pickup zone and some Tesla behind you step on the wrong pedal and slam into you, injuring everyone. In fact, my mom was driving my car once and was inches away from doing that, but she quickly switched pedals because I warned her, before she drove my car, about that one fatal mistake that she may make.

It does make me rethink how my own choices of getting a powerful car can affect everyone else I care about in my life. I just wish that more of these accidents can be prevented one way or another.

 

[rpiotro]

There have been a number of occasions where I am POSITIVE i am on the brake only, only to be alerted the car will not start as I am pressing both pedals. If I move my foot all is well. So I can totally see people accidentially pressing on the wring pedal. And if you think you are on the brake then mashing to the floor is a common reaction.

Aha! A two pedal driver? That should be used only in Go-Karts and F1. Just asking for trouble. Don't be one of those guys that I follow for miles with their brake lights on.

 

[dhrivnak]

Aha! A two pedal driver? That should be used only in Go-Karts and F1. Just asking for trouble. Don't be one of those guys that I follow for miles with their brake lights on.

No sir only one foot used. But the pedals are close and while I am on the brake it appear my foot is wide enough to also hit the gas on occasion.

 

[oneformula@gma]

this is obviously not a car enthusiat's forum.

car enthusiasts know of "sudden acceleration" being a fake thing for decades. and all the news reports, lawsuits, and yellow journalism.

brakes are stronger than motors and engines. always.

modern brakes (for the last 50 years) are redundant and pretty foolproof.

and does no one here know about heel-toe-shifting with one foot???

 

[brkaus]

That is a good news, though I cannot understand how you can press gas pedal instead of brake for so long. Seems absolutely insane to me... Maybe your theory about one pedal driving is a valid point....

It’s easy. Person is so convinced they are pushing the brake, they just double down and push harder/longer.

The silence of the motor makes it even easier.

 

[BigNick]

Back when I learned how to drive, I was taught if the accelerator was stuck at WOT, slap it once and if it didn't return, to push in the clutch with the left foot and brake with the right. Engines can be replaced/rebuilt, but not people. Yes, I'm old.

 

[pikeman]

Pilot error. Very simple.