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What is my car worth? tesla low balling me

Zorg

Active Member
Oct 24, 2017
1,655
1,467
Fremont, ca
Well, they are already coming. Recently, Tesla went from being #1 for a long time to #7 for EV sales in Norway (7 Fully Electric Vehicles In Norway's Top 10). They barely sold more than BMW i3, and got outsold by the LEAF almost 2:1. The top vehicle was the Audi eTron which outsold the Model 3 more than 4:1.

Similar fate likely awaits in other countries once the rest of the EV lineups arrive there. A lot more EV's are coming in the next 2 years, even if half of them don't make it, Tesla will still be facing stiff competition.

Major difference between Norway and the US is the availability of third party fast charging options. Competition is coming but I have yet to see decent products apart from Rivian.
 
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ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
6,694
12,573
California
Major difference between Norway and the US is the availability of third party fast charging options.
Agree, this can’t be overstated. You can drive any EV anywhere in Norway with ample, affordable, competitive DC fast charging. That opens up the market considerably to competition.

That’s years away from existing in the US. So here, you’ve either got a Tesla or an EV that’s close to worthless when you get more than 100 miles from home. Even in EV-infrastructure-rich California, there’s no way I’d own an EV that can’t Supercharge as my only mode of transport.
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,617
7,945
Seattle area, WA
Major difference between Norway and the US is the availability of third party fast charging options. Competition is coming but I have yet to see decent products apart from Rivian.

Agree, this can’t be overstated. You can drive any EV anywhere in Norway with ample, affordable, competitive DC fast charging. That opens up the market considerably to competition.

That’s years away from existing in the US. So here, you’ve either got a Tesla or an EV that’s close to worthless when you get more than 100 miles from home. Even in EV-infrastructure-rich California, there’s no way I’d own an EV that can’t Supercharge as my only mode of transport.
Here is Electrify America (the biggest DC charging network in USA today, though not the only one), showing only live fast DC charging station in the USA today (filtered out "coming soon" and L2 only stations):
upload_2020-11-24_22-57-53.png


And here is supercharger map (also filtered out coming soon, tried to capture similar region):
upload_2020-11-24_23-2-36.png


In a couple of short years EA caught up to where Tesla was perhaps 2 years ago in the USA. I don't see that "major edge" or "mote" that everyone is talking about. It's not like 2 years ago people refused to buy Teslas because there was not enough superchargers. Heck, I took my measly 85 battery from Seattle to Toronto and back with no problems in 2016 when Tesla had much less coverage than 2 years ago.
 

David_Cary

Active Member
Dec 17, 2012
1,231
763
Cary, NC
To be fair, would you be more comfortable taking a roadtrip in a e-tron as an example or your several year old Tesla?

EA still suffers from Legacy stupidity

Electrify America Shuts Down 500-Mile Charging Corridor Over Labor Day

It is true that the charging situation for Tesla competitors is getting better but still nowhere near equivalent. Norway's poor Tesla performance was an unusual situation the first half of the year and I suspect availability dominates in that very small market. Used Model 3s are selling at a premium to new in Norway because of supply issues. (Reported in Torque News and may certainly not be true.)

I totally agree that Tesla stinks at certain things and FSD is a cool thing but wickedly overpriced and definitely not appreciating. But, I don't see myself leaving the brand.

Reliability. 88k with min issues; Buddy with 113k - minimal issues. Original MCUs if you can imagine. Perfect, Camry comparable? - no.
 

David_Cary

Active Member
Dec 17, 2012
1,231
763
Cary, NC
Just for a quick check on Plugshare, near my house.

The first EA I found had a 10 review. However on 11/1/2020 - "Drew" in his e-tron wrote "Finally a good EA charging experience"
The next one I checked had a 9 but reading the reviews, people are very forgiving.

It indicated it was charging, but stopped shortly after I walked into Target. I spent 19 minutes inside so I got charged for IDLING, instead of charging! Ridiculous.

It’s fast! ... once you get it to work. It took me 6 or more times to get it to charge using the myAudi app. Three charging stations total. Middle one is down (no light, screen dead). Can’t speak to the one on the right.”

Tried 2 CCS charge stations. 1st said mobile/cc not working. 2nd would not initiate and could not start payment with iPhone nor CC. Then gave up. Also, had trouble releasing the connector from my i3
 
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whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,617
7,945
Seattle area, WA
To be fair, would you be more comfortable taking a roadtrip in a e-tron as an example or your several year old Tesla?
Very good question. I have not looked into road tripping with an eTron yet. I will say I would not risk taking my 2015 Model S with 40K miles on it on a cross continent trip. Why? Because I don't consider it reliable, which has 2 aspects to it:
  1. Tesla product has issues, especially with old hardware. My MCU1 had emmc issues already, the car was down for 1 week while I was reverse engineering the MCU to swap out the MCU. Yes Tesla did offer to fix it for $2,300 at that time, with 1 to 3 week wait (during which the car would have been down as well). Now the car is having issues with driver profiles (car thinks it's in Easy Entry all the time) and sometimes when I come to the car the IC and MCU are up but somehow the IC things the MCU is down, or MCU touchscreen doesn't work, and while most of the time I can get it going in 3-4 minutes by rebooting things, a couple of times pressing the reboot thumbwheel salute didn't for for a few minutes (10-15) while I was trying - 15 minute delay before you start driving is not something you expect from reliable car. Then there is the constant running of the coolant pumps, used to be if I set my max SoC to less than 80% they would turn off, now they run all the time regardless of charge (mind you, never tried draining the batter to 0 miles to see what happens). It is quite likely that the coolant pumps will die at some point, as they were not designed to run 24/7. All in all, I no longer have faith in the car's reliability. If it was the only car in the family, I'd trade it for something else, probably a temporary ICE, until the tri-motor eTron GT or something similar.
  2. Tesla service and parts supply has major issues. No car is bulletproof and they all can fail, but my Tesla's (I bought 4 Model S to date) spent more time in service than any other car I've owned, especially when almost new. While it was worth the amazing car to drive before Model 3 came out, since then the service got progressively worse. My greatest worry here is that my Tesla dies in the middle of a roadtrip, and it's stuck thousands of miles from home waiting on Tesla service for weeks or months. All the other guys have way better parts and service infrastructure.
An eTron is relatively new and possibly dealerships in the middle of nowhere don't know how to fix one, so I would have some reservations about taking it cross country, however if I had to go and given a choice between 2015 Model S vs. new eTron, I'd pick the eTron hands down (for reliability, for fun factor I'd go with Taycan Turbo - same charging networks).

You got me thinking btw, perhaps next fall, if the pandemic is over, and I trade my Model S for a tri-motor Audi eTron GT, or maybe I'll cave in and pick up a Taycan Tourismo, I might just do another cross USA trip in an EV. I enjoyed my 2016 trip in a P85DL very much, so why not do it again in an Audi or a Porsche performance EV.

PS> I like the way a Performance Model S drives over the Taycan by the way - the primary reason is the 2 speed transmission which bugs me during regular highway driving, maybe I'd get used to it. I much prefer the Model S size and rear hatch (though that is not working flawlessly anymore in my 2015 or 2018 car either). I'm not crazy about Model S constant changes and new bugs added via OTA, but the biggest thing is service and Tesla pulling warranty off of things like yellowing screens (or even having to be forced by NHTSA to cover MCU1, let's see if they will give me $2,300 cash which was the price they quoted me to fix mine at the time it was dying - I fixed it myself, and am warrantying it longer than Tesla was their fix). All that said, if Tesla was to give me a guarantee in writing that while under warranty I get same or better Tesla loaner within 24hrs of my car needing service, and I get to keep it for however long Tesla need to get parts for my car and to fix it, and it applies to roadtrips where they will ship my car back to my house if they cannot fix it back to fully functional (not the "it doesn't your ability to drive, therefore it's ok" crap), I would more than likely go buy another Model S Performance right now. Btw, when I say in writing, I mean with something backing it, like $400+tx per day day for any days they cannot get me a proper loaner (that is what Hertz charges for a Model S class rental). Of course, that will never happen because Tesla would go bankrupt with such terms considering their current production quality and parts/service organization, hence I probably will not be buying another Tesla for while or ever, unless they fix their quality, parts and service issues. I hope they do, because I like what Elon does and would love to support him (which was part of the reason I kept buying Teslas 2013-2018, the other part was of course the cars are a blast to drive:D).
 
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zannman

Member
May 15, 2019
133
101
Ohio
Major difference between Norway and the US is the availability of third party fast charging options. Competition is coming but I have yet to see decent products apart from Rivian.

Major difference in the charging networks available and the car. US Tesla cars don't have CCS capability even if another brand's DCFC was more convenient. I really believe Tesla is holding back on that capability until there is meaningful US EV competition.
 

1windy

Member
Jul 27, 2014
377
139
suffolk
Be careful with e-tron. I had a brand new Q8 not etron , and what a disaster. Worst car I ever owned. Had to sue Audi to take it back. Even the service dept manager said mine was the worst he has ever seen in 25 years. He supposedly fought for them to voluntarily buyback the vehicle. They said no, as soon as I got lemon law atty, they folded like a cheap suit. The operating system is junk, not intuitive and flaky. Trunk popped open while driving a few times, couldn't switch BT users unless the others in car shut off their phones. Go read on Audiworld all the postings. Didn't even mention the worst part, the delay when trying to accelerate. HUGE problem. Ridiculous start/stop would engage before coming close to a full stop.
 
Sep 23, 2020
480
415
Sacramento CA
Meh. I think that's a broad exaggeration, especially in the case of the S.

They've got a few problem areas that have been addressed over time. MCU, air suspension, etc.

X has the craptastic falcon wing doors, which I agree still seem to be a big reliability problem and a reason I'd never own one.

My S has been dead reliable in 115,000 miles. My experience, while not entirely typical, is also not entirely abnormal.


For me it's a convenience that is the singular difference between owning an EV as my only means of transport and not. I'd never own a non-Tesla EV as my only vehicle. It's literally the difference between a car being viable transportation for almost any scenario and being limited to an around-town runabout. That's far more than a "convenience".
Major difference between Norway and the US is the availability of third party fast charging options. Competition is coming but I have yet to see decent products apart from Rivian.
Really nice to see a whiff of sanity across the sea.
Major difference in the charging networks available and the car. US Tesla cars don't have CCS capability even if another brand's DCFC was more convenient. I really believe Tesla is holding back on that capability until there is meaningful US EV competition.

Is this the same line of thinking where Tesla is "holding back on its capability" of improving its reliability, providing parts and servicing its vehicles until there is more US competition ?

If Elon thinks he can just "hang back" and goose the pedal when he needs to... he's even worse of a long-term strategist than I've pegged him to be.

The promises about something "really special" regarding FSD being "around the corner" are laughable. The guy should work for the promo department at my local TV station.
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,617
7,945
Seattle area, WA
Be careful with e-tron. I had a brand new Q8 not etron , and what a disaster. Worst car I ever owned. Had to sue Audi to take it back. Even the service dept manager said mine was the worst he has ever seen in 25 years. He supposedly fought for them to voluntarily buyback the vehicle. They said no, as soon as I got lemon law atty, they folded like a cheap suit. The operating system is junk, not intuitive and flaky. Trunk popped open while driving a few times, couldn't switch BT users unless the others in car shut off their phones. Go read on Audiworld all the postings. Didn't even mention the worst part, the delay when trying to accelerate. HUGE problem. Ridiculous start/stop would engage before coming close to a full stop.

Since we're talking about "worst in 25 years" category, did the roof fall off of it on the way back from the dealer on deliver day (like the recent Model Y)? ;):p

I kid of course, I'm sure you would have mentioned that. No car is perfect. I've had issues with cars as well (again, less that with Tesla, but I expected it with a new car company and was fine with it as long as they had good service which took care of all of all the issues). One other thing that Audi and all traditional manufacturers have is a dealer network, who can help by fighting on your side, and who compete with each other, so you can always go to another dealer - something not possible with Tesla.

Btw, I've never owned and Audi, but I have owned a couple VW Passat's and Porsche 911, they all required nothing but regular service (unless you count me wearing through the Porsche tires in sub 10K miles, all the way to a tire blow out - I was young and like spirited driving;)). I've owned many cars over the years, all but by very first car I purchased new, and only came close to lemoning one of them even though I didn't know it - it was a new Lexus with a pesky BlueTooth noise issue, which the dealer only told me after the 3rd visit that if they weren't able to fix it then, they would have recommended a buyback - they even had an engineer from corporate with an airplane ticket issues already in Japan ready to come to debug when their own mechanic finally found the issue - bent ground pin in one of the harnesses.

My Tesla experience has been mostly great until M3's came out in volume. Even though every one of the 4 Model S's required service within first month of deliver (one spotted on delivery day, side mirrors wouldn't unfold all the way, took 3 visits and 4 months to permanently fix), Tesla service was always stellar, there were always loaners available, it was a little annoying but worth the trade off. Then one of the S's was in a crash, I got my first taste of Tesla accident experience, way longer times than anyone would expect even just to estimate (lucky ours was totaled, as the queue to fix was months long). Then service started rolling down hill - for example, the newest MS developed the shakes while braking, it took a couple weeks to book an appointment and then had to leave the car there for up to 4 days for a 45 minute shop visit. No Tesla loaners and even ICE cars were somehow out, while the Uber credit wouldn't even take me home and back. 3 hours later they finally located a Kia rental for me. I offered to bring it back if we can schedule a time to fix while waiting, but that is "not the way Tesla service operates ". Then when I brought my less than a year old car for yellowing screen, I got to experience the new "this is normal wear and tear" line, and while waiting in line got to listen to other owner's issues, how one was threatened with diagnostic fees if he brings his new car in again for a problem which they could not reproduce, even though he brought them a cell phone video of the problem occurring. I actually was going to test drive then new Raven P100D on that same visit, but after 3 hours of trying to get a car to drive I decided not to bother - the thought of a 5th Model S and having to bring it in for its usual post-delivery fixes just turned be off given the service experience I just witnessed.
 

1windy

Member
Jul 27, 2014
377
139
suffolk
I just finished deleting about 30 Audi Q8 videos off my phone. Their operating system is horrible. Cant remember how many times I had to reprogram my settings, if I was able to get to the individual screens to make settings. Do a simple search for Q8 engine delay, it lights up with info like a newly lit christmas tree. The rumored cause is the effects of the the huge fines they paid for false mpg data. Anyway had to deal with it for just under a year, and God bless Whitmer she closed the state a day before Audi was to cut me a check. Had to wait an extra 3 months to get paid back while the thing sat in my garage. Didn't want to jinx taking it out and something happening to it. The battery was dead when I finally got an appt to bring it in. Can't make it up if I tried.
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,617
7,945
Seattle area, WA
I just finished deleting about 30 Audi Q8 videos off my phone. Their operating system is horrible. Cant remember how many times I had to reprogram my settings, if I was able to get to the individual screens to make settings. Do a simple search for Q8 engine delay, it lights up with info like a newly lit christmas tree. The rumored cause is the effects of the the huge fines they paid for false mpg data. Anyway had to deal with it for just under a year, and God bless Whitmer she closed the state a day before Audi was to cut me a check. Had to wait an extra 3 months to get paid back while the thing sat in my garage. Didn't want to jinx taking it out and something happening to it. The battery was dead when I finally got an appt to bring it in. Can't make it up if I tried.
I'll definitely do some more research on the e-tron before getting one. It probably won't have engine delays, but likely other issues. The question to me will be which issues I would rather live with, Tesla, or eTron, or Taycan. Btw, when the e-Tron initially came our I wasn't crazy about the way it drove compared to a Model S, but by the time Taycan came out they improved quiet a bit, so I'm hopeful for the eTron GT.
 

Zorg

Active Member
Oct 24, 2017
1,655
1,467
Fremont, ca
The good news is that Tesla issues are easily fixable if Elon decided to. On the other hand, Tesla technology lead will be a lot harder to overcome for legacy car manufacturers.
 

sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
8,165
5,938
Merced, CA
Model S, 70D, AP1, pre refresh, 37K miles. Cod weather package, Leather , Free Unlimited supercharging and have Tesla 50K warranty ( bought it CPO from tesla @14k miles in 2018)

Tesla trade in is offering me $33.5K. Good? Bad? or Ugly?
Carmax $36K

Havent tried doing private party as dont have too much time to deal with that honestly but if feedback comes that Im leaving too much on the table, will do private party..

Looking to upgrade to new MS in couple of weeks

For Tesla, that's a pretty good offer.
 

1windy

Member
Jul 27, 2014
377
139
suffolk
I'll definitely do some more research on the e-tron before getting one. It probably won't have engine delays, but likely other issues. The question to me will be which issues I would rather live with, Tesla, or eTron, or Taycan. Btw, when the e-Tron initially came our I wasn't crazy about the way it drove compared to a Model S, but by the time Taycan came out they improved quiet a bit, so I'm hopeful for the eTron GT.
I drove the Taycon. I liked the power and way it drove. Got to say I wasn't a fan of the interior style. Audi has a great interior IMO. I'm telling you there is no intuitive design to working within their MMI. Really bad. The drawback for Taycan to me was the range. IT wouldn't work for me. I'm hopeful my new Tesla will be a good one. Was willing to try Lucid but didn't want to wait for it, and have concerns with them getting established.
 

ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
6,694
12,573
California
Audi has a great interior IMO. I'm telling you there is no intuitive design to working within their MMI. Really bad.
I’ve gotta say, it surprises me how many people will gush and fawn over Audi’s “amazing interiors” while simultaneously acknowledging it’s all just a highly polished artisan-stitched leather wrapping over an abhorrent German turd of an infotainment system.

That’s increasingly unforgivable to me. An auto interior needs to be function before form. The Model S is not perfect in this regard, but it’s leagues better than any other car I’ve owned.
 
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1windy

Member
Jul 27, 2014
377
139
suffolk
I’ve gotta say, it surprises me how many people will gush and fawn over Audi’s “amazing interiors” while simultaneously acknowledging it’s all just a highly polished artisan-stitched leather wrapping over an abhorrent German turd of an infotainment system.

That’s increasingly unforgivable to me. An auto interior needs to be function before form. The Model S is not perfect in this regard, but it’s leagues better than any other car I’ve owned.
Absolutely agree!!!
 

Drkmttr

Member
Mar 2, 2020
23
27
Toronto
Tesla offered me 80K (CDN) for my 2018 S P100D with FSD. Another major brand (non-Tesla dealer) offered me 94K. Took the 94K in a heartbeat.
 

whitex

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2015
6,617
7,945
Seattle area, WA
Tesla offered me 80K (CDN) for my 2018 S P100D with FSD. Another major brand (non-Tesla dealer) offered me 94K. Took the 94K in a heartbeat.
It's been a long time since I lived in Ontario, but I suspect you still get a trade-in tax credit. So, if you traded in to Tesla for $80K, you'd also get sales tax credit. Not sure what taxes they charge on cars there now - last I was there it was 15% (PST+GST) but I know you now have 13% HST instead, but possibly some other taxes for cars too. Tesla knows this btw, and their trade-in offers reflect that to make a little extra money. Other dealers often allow trade-through's, i.e. if you found a dealer willing to buy your car for $94K, Tesla would trade it in on paper and sell it to that dealer, while you get to collect an additional 13% or 15% sales tax credit. BUT, Tesla doesn't do that, even if they say they do (they gave be such lowered trade in evaluations on my tradeins too, one time even told me if I find a licensed dealer who will pay more they will trade through, but when I did, they backed out saying I was given wrong information because they don't do that).
 

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