What is Tesla's upcoming 'under your nose' announcement?

[FredTMC]

While the could technically do this, I don't think it would go over well. People have come to expect announcements to be reserved for ready-to-deploy products/services, not some arbitrary "this will be available at some undisclosed future date" tease.

I'm guessing it'll be exactly this demo of air metal tech but TM will say its coming within 12-18 months. Certainly not 2-3 years out. That's too far in future. They need to present that its design being finalized and production design starting soon. Available in 12-18 mo

 

[Mayhemm]

The Model X demo, and the first supercharger demo, are both examples of Tesla showing something that isn't exactly ready for deployment.

Apologies. I should have specified that I was referring to the latest "round" of announcements (loaners, financing, supercharger #2) rather than the older ones. :redface:

 

[stopcrazypp]

Tesla already gets the extra ZEVs for meeting the fast refuel requirement.

Source? I have seen no good estimates of how many credits and how much money Tesla actually gets per car for the Model S.

Just some cold water for the people posting things about Al-air batteries in the frunk, I think people are over-simplifying things.

First of all, such a battery will need a high voltage (400V) socket that will need to be connected by the user and that socket will need to do a similar handshake like the supercharger for safety. I would think there would be some evidence of this in the frunk if it existed.

Keep in mind Phinergy never once said how many kWh their pack actually holds and if you see the video the pack is big/heavy enough to need two people to carry. They have thrown around the number of 25kg as the weight, but it's unclear whether this refers to the 50 aluminum plates (anode) only or the entire pack.

The 8kWh/kg number published by Phinergy is actually the theoretical limit of the aluminum itself (does not include the cathode, electrolyte, CO2 barrier, cell/pack enclosure, cell interconnects, real world inefficiencies). Wikipedia references a paper that says 1.3-2kWh/kg for current and projected Al-air batteries. That gives 50kWh for a 25kg pack. Sure that's much better than Li-ion batteries, but is that good enough for range extension?

Power is the bigger issue. Theoretical specific power is 0.2kW/kg, so that only provides 5kW of power for 25kg, definitely not near enough power to act as a "range extender". A small car would need 15-20kW for a generator for highway travel. I suspect given the "1000 miles" of range claim by Phinergy, the pack is closer to 200kWh and 100kg given 2kWh/kg, to provide the 15-20kW necessary to serve as a range extender. And a 100kg (220lb) pack is not practical for one person to lift (although possible with two people).
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/03/alair-20100323.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium–air_battery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genset_trailer

 

[WarpedOne]

Look here
It is not California, it is New Jersey but nevertheless: MS85 is listed as Type V vehicle and MS60 as type IV vehicle.

They define Type V as:

Type V ZEV has a range of equal to or greater than 300 miles, must be capable of replacing 95% maximum rated energy capacity in <= 15 minutes.

and Type IV as:

Type IV ZEV has a range of equal to or greater than 200 miles, must be capable of replacing 95% maximum rated energy capacity in <= 15 minutes.

Clearly, SuperChargers don't replace 95% rated energy capacity in less than 15 minutes. Not with MS85 nor with MS60.
What did TM show them to get Type V moniker?

 

[yobigd20]

Look here
It is not California, it is New Jersey but nevertheless: MS85 is listed as Type V vehicle and MS60 as type IV vehicle.

They define Type V as:


and Type IV as:


Clearly, SuperChargers don't replace 95% rated energy capacity in less than 15 minutes. Not with MS85 nor with MS60.
What did TM show them to get Type V moniker?

That is VERY interesting....nice find.

 

[JRP3]

I agree with stopcrazypp, the metal air range extender idea is less than likely.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The 8kWh/kg number published by Phinergy is actually the theoretical limit of the aluminum itself (does not include the cathode, electrolyte, CO2 barrier, cell/pack enclosure, cell interconnects, real world inefficiencies). Wikipedia references a paper that says 1.3-2kWh/kg for current and projected Al-air batteries. That gives 50kWh for a 25kg pack. Sure that's much better than Li-ion batteries, but is that good enough for range extension?

Power is the bigger issue. Theoretical specific power is 0.2kW/kg, so that only provides 5kW of power for 25kg, definitely not near enough power to act as a "range extender". A small car would need 15-20kW for a generator for highway travel. I suspect given the "1000 miles" of range claim by Phinergy, the pack is closer to 200kWh and 100kg given 2kWh/kg, to provide the 15-20kW necessary to serve as a range extender. And a 100kg (220lb) pack is not practical for one person to lift (although possible with two people).
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/03/alair-20100323.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium–air_battery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genset_trailer

Well, you're assuming a serial range-extender that fully drives the car at any speed. If you think of it instead as an assist pack, you could have a half-size pack providing 10kW and then you'd only be drawing 5-10kW from the main pack, which would also get the benefit of any regen. If you have 30kWh usable lithium-ion 7.5kW is 4 hours of driving. The assist pack could also trickle-charge the Li-ion pack at any stop.

50kg is still heavy, but easy to install with the help of a simple machine and would work nicely in a rental model.

Nothing coming yet, but I think it's a possible model for the future.

For June 20th just fixing the damn vampire issue while hiding the fact they had the problem under a barrage of other in-car upgrades and notifications of the beginning of shipping to Europe would be more than enough. And it would help to say "Oh Q2 financials seem to be better than we expected (tee-hee, take that shorties)."

 

[imherkimer]

Seems to me that the metal-air, or similar. hybrid battery pack range extender is the only option discussed here so far that is likely.

 

[daveruns]

Under your nose...How about a spare battery pack that could be picked up at the supercharger location and would fit under the hood. Might be pretty heavy, but perhaps air suspension system could compensate and maybe an auto loading mechanism could take it in and out. When you get to the next charge station, you swap it out. Just a thought....

 

[WarpedOne]

50kg is still heavy, but easy to install with the help of a simple machine and would work nicely in a rental model.

There is *no* need for it to be a single 50 kg block. Make it into 5 cartridges @ 10kg each or something similar.
What is even more important and useful is that there is only one real limit how many of such blocks one could take along - max curb weight.
Connect 5 cartridges, add 5 in frunk and another 5 in trunk, range charge and voila 230kWh or ~700 miles of autonomy (with 2kWh/kg modules).
When main battery and those 5 connected modules get depleted, just stop *anywhere* and connect other 5 modules, ~2 minutes. Repeat after another 150miles if not sooner.

Such modules would have another big use (assuming no internal leakage): electric reserve - just buy some and put them into frunk. When stalled/in danger of stallin - connect.

This thing must happen. If not by Tesla than by someone else.

How about a spare battery pack that could be picked up at the supercharger location and would fit under the hood. Might be pretty heavy,

I assume you mean same battery chemistry as in main pack i.e. LiIon 18650 3100mAh - these have ~250Wh/kg.
A 50kg block without liquid cooling and all that safety stuff would hold 12kWh and add about 30 miles of range.
A 50kg block with liquid cooling and all that safety stuff as in main pack would hold ~6kWh and add about 15 miles of range.
It is not worth the trouble.

 

[napabill]

Under your nose...How about a spare battery pack that could be picked up at the supercharger location and would fit under the hood. Might be pretty heavy, but perhaps air suspension system could compensate and maybe an auto loading mechanism could take it in and out. When you get to the next charge station, you swap it out. Just a thought....

And it will be affectionally known as a "Broder Pack.":smile:

 

[roblab]

And it will be affectionally known as a "Broder Pack.":smile:

+1, napabill!

Unless, of course, this is not a politically correct statement, in which case, still +1.

 

[johnnydop]

Beating a dead horse, i know. Just had to get this off my chest.

Perhaps we are all overcomplicating things here. (its scary that I think about what he’ll announce as I get into bed at night)

Elon is all about making the whole process quick, easy, and convenient. He does not want to make things more complicated. Adding another battery that is swappable or has a replaceable cartridge could confuse potential buyers and current owners.

They might ask:

Does the extra battery come with the car?
Is it swappable for a fee?
Will I be able to swap it out at any SC station?
Instead of swapping, will the metal cartridge just be replaceable? For how much?

The simplest most efficient answer to what he hinted is:

A second charging port located “under the nose” of the car that you either plug in or perhaps drive over and use via induction. The main battery pack must be split into two sections. The car will know when the two charging ports are used and will direct the current from each port to its respective part of the battery. That will then reduce the 20 min charge to down 10 minutes.

Ahhhhhh! Even as I write I’m still not 100% convinced and the possibility of a secondary battery still exists. I think this because if it was a simple addition of a second charging port, why not just announce that during the SC announcement. It would have made sense since the announcement was related to charging. The bullet summary of the call would have looked like this:

“-We are expanding and accelerating our SC station rollout.

-You’ll now have the ability to charge at 120kw which will reduce charging time to 20 min.

-We also plan to use a second charging port on the car which will allow you to connect two chargers at the same time thus reducing your charge time to 10 minutes (hence the increased amount of ports and longer cords at the SC stations).

-This extra port will require a minor install on all existing MS’s for a one-time fee of $300 (arbitrary number) and can be factory installed on new orders”

Instead, he saved this announcement for last, why?

1. In his grand plan to kill the shorts he purposely ordered the announcements in a manner of least to most important/newsworthy.

2. He also wouldn’t comment on his hyperloop idea until after this announcement. That seems very strange and makes one think the technology he’s thinking to use for the hyperloop is similar to what he’s announcing. Why else wouldn’t he candidly talk about the hyperloop idea that he has no interest in pursuing.

3. It’s got to be something different than simply adding another charging port which easily could have been rolled into the SC announcement.

My head hurts!

 

[Johan]

Perhaps we are all overcomplicating things here. (its scary that I think about what he’ll announce as I get into bed at night)

Ah... another case of the Tesla-Elon fever epidemic... Been there done that I too think of it way to often and way too much.

For what it's worth: I don't think it will be another charging port. The whole "splitting the battery in two partitions" makes as little sense as saying: "I'll take my hard drive and create two partitions, and then when I copy files to it I'll be able to copy at double the speed if I'm copying to both partitions at the same time.". If the battery can take whatever charge rate it can take, there is no point in partitioning it.

Inductive charging, now that's interesting! But for these rates???

 

[johnnydop]

For what it's worth: I don't think it will be another charging port. The whole "splitting the battery in two partitions" makes as little sense as saying: "I'll take my hard drive and create two partitions, and then when I copy files to it I'll be able to copy at double the speed if I'm copying to both partitions at the same time.". If the battery can take whatever charge rate it can take, there is no point in partitioning it.

I see what you mean but the battery doest get the same amount of current the whole time. The wattage ramps up to 120kw then gradually slows down to a trickel. Elons "filling a glass of water to the brim" example comes to mind. Perhaps charging them seperately will allow the ramp up/slow down to occur in manner that results in a quicker charge. Just a guess of course.

 

[JRP3]

Inductive charging, as you drive. It's faster than stopping at a gas station because you never stop, and currents can be lower because you're still driving so it doesn't have to happen quickly. Now, has anyone seen a long stretch of highway being dug up for a trench of inductive cabling? :wink:

 

[Johan]

Inductive charging, as you drive. It's faster than stopping at a gas station because you never stop, and currents can be lower because you're still driving so it doesn't have to happen quickly. Now, has anyone seen a long stretch of highway being dug up for a trench of inductive cabling? :wink:

That highway will be on top of the hyperloop trench. "Tesla only"

 

[jeff_adams]

Inductive charging, as you drive. It's faster than stopping at a gas station because you never stop, and currents can be lower because you're still driving so it doesn't have to happen quickly. Now, has anyone seen a long stretch of highway being dug up for a trench of inductive cabling? :wink:

Maybe they got the idea from Broder? Drive around in circles around the supercharger and you will be charged up. :wink:

 

[deonb]

I have to ask - I know Al-air batteries requires water to operate. Are the plates re-usable a couple of times with a water top-op, or are they always replaced in-step?


i.e. If you have e.g. a 1000 mile al-air battery, do you add water for all 1000 miles? Or do you add it for e.g. 250 miles at a time and then replace it?

In the case of the latter you would have a period water fill-up which can be 'faster than a gas fill-up', and can be done 'anywhere in the country'.

 

[Mayhemm]

2. He also wouldn’t comment on his hyperloop idea until after this announcement. That seems very strange and makes one think the technology he’s thinking to use for the hyperloop is similar to what he’s announcing. Why else wouldn’t he candidly talk about the hyperloop idea that he has no interest in pursuing.

Elon has said repeatedly that he didn't want to talk about the hyperloop because, if he did, all the media coverage would be on that and not on the Tesla announcement(s).

Now, has anyone seen a long stretch of highway being dug up for a trench of inductive cabling? :wink:

Our highways look like they're being dug up. Does that count?