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What outlets should my company install?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by derekt75, Aug 14, 2014.

  1. derekt75

    derekt75 Member

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    I just heard that my company is going to install some outlets for EVs. They decided to use plain old 120 V. I think that's silly. Assuming that my company doesn't want to spend too much money building something fancy (e.g., CHAdeMO), and that Volts and Leafs are the main market, what should they install?
    A 14-50 outlet fed by 208 V on a 50 A circuit?
    Does that work for Volts, Leafs, and Teslas?
     
  2. Zythryn

    Zythryn MS 70D, MX 90D

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    I'd say dedicated 120v outlets would be great. Any EV can charge off them if they need to and get 30-40 miles during a workday.
    Cost for the company is low. Just don't put the spots in prime parking and paint the parking spots green;)
     
  3. RandyS

    RandyS Fan of Elon

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    Unless you have a Tesla owner that is making a 125+ mile commute to work each day (which is very rare), our cars will not need to charge at the workplace.

    The other smaller EVs, however, with anywhere from 10 miles of EV range on the Plugin Prius to as much as 80 or so miles range on one of the BEVs such as the LEAF, may need to plug-in to return home (again, depending on the commute).

    I happen to think that your workplace is on the right track by suggesting Level 1 charging. In an 8 hour workday, that can add anywhere from 24-40 miles of charge, depending on the car. And it is very inexpensive to install. Because of that, they can add more of them so that more cars can use it without shuffling cars all over the place.

    Are they going to bill for it or make it free? Free sounds very nice to employees, but I can guarantee you that people will stop charging at home and will all try to take advantage of the free charging. So the people who really need it may not always have access to it....A modest fee to charge that is roughly equivalent to what people pay at home will help keep the units available for more people...

    Anyways, I could type more, but those are the basics. We've seen many examples of this in San Diego, so I have experience with workplace charging...Level 1 would help them charge more cars and give the drivers enough of a charge to get back home....
     
  4. swaltner

    swaltner Member

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    The EVSE supplied with the Volt and LEAF will NOT work on a 14-50 outlet. They are 120V units ONLY. They can be sent to evseupgrade.com and upgraded to support 208/240 V for about $300, but it's not a given that the 14-50 outlet will work with an EV other than from Tesla.

    I'm close to getting work to install workplace charging. The hope is to get L1 EVSEs installed (to avoid the hassle of getting your own cord out of the trunk). We would do a low-cost parking permit to use these and try to get an EVSE for every owner so vehicles can be left of the charger all day and no need to bother shuffling cars during the day.
     
  5. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    ClipperCreek makes some low cost level 1 EVSEs. Agree charging people something low like $2/day to charge and park would be a good idea. They would recoup their costs in a few years but would help deter people who don't need the charge from parking there.

    The level 2 LCS 20 from them is only $395 too so a better quicker option. Maybe get two of those and reserve those for 100% BEVs and the level one stations for PHEVs.
     
  6. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    120V is essentially useless for the Model S but then it generally doesn't need workplace charging, as few people commute more than 110 miles one way to work!

    It will be usually be adequate for the Volt and the Leaf.

    I have always felt it was a poor decision for GM and Nissan not to make those cars capable of 240V/40A charging as standard equipment.
     
  7. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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  8. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

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    As you own a Tesla, you know that a 14-50 works for Tesla. It doesn't for Volt or Leaf without a third-party modification to their charging cables. They need J1772 or 120V. As others have said, workplace charging for Tesla would rarely be necessary given its range. For other EVs workplace charging for the 8 hours it's parked could be very useful. A parked EV is a charging opportunity wasted. A 120V charge over 8 hours would likely be enough for most EV owners who primarily charge at home. It costs so little it's probably not worth the company setting up a system to charge for it, they should install as many 120V outlets as needed, and just make it a perk. For those who need more range, one or more J1772 charging stations could be installed and those could be set up with an hourly fee so it would only be used by those who need it.
     
  9. FredTMC

    FredTMC Model S VIN #4925

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    Regular 120v outlets is really all that's needed at work. I've thought a lot about this.

    As as others have said, you'll get 25-40 miles in eight hours.

    What at I like best about 120v is that it can be deployed very inexpensively. I think there's a large public misconception that charging stations are expensive.

    In the work setting, you'll be there for 8 hours, so 120v is fine. I agree it's not worth charging employees. It's a perk - like coffee.
     
  10. techmaven

    techmaven Active Member

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    Standard outlets need to be covered to avoid water damage. 120v 20A outlets can be quite effective for work place charging - about 40 rated miles in 8 hours for a Tesla. You'll need the 20A adapter for your UMC.

    If they are willing to spend some additional money, then using the exact same wiring for a 20A 110v receptacle, the inexpensive Clipper Creek LCS-20 ($395) gives you the convenience of not pulling out your UMC and doubles your charging rate over a 110v 15A outlet. the breaker would be more expensive, but the difference is likely under $20. This would be slightly more efficient and provide about 60 rated miles in 8 hours. Plus, it's outdoor rated:

    LCS-20, 15A, 240V charging, 22 cord | ClipperCreek Vehicle Charging Station
     
  11. Jaff

    Jaff Active Member

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    I think it depends on your location...If you live in the North where winter is a fact of life, the 120v charging at work can be very important...helps you offset cold weather losses by allowing shore powered battery preheating...
     
  12. Cottonwood

    Cottonwood Roadster#433, Model S#S37

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    If they are going to put in 120 Volt outlets, suggest 5-20R outlets on separate 20 Amp circuits for each parking spot. See NEMA connector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for a picture. The 5-20R has the extra horizontal part that will accept a 5-20 adapter for a Tesla and provide a few more Amps at very little extra cost. The breaker per spot should be obvious, but not standard for a string of outlets for other uses.

    For a little extra money and maybe in just a few spots, have them look at the HCS-60, 48A, 240V ClipperCreek Vehicle Charging Station. It can be installed with #6 wire on a 60 Amp breaker. At $899 it's very cost effective and will provide 48 Amps to a Tesla or 30 Amps to a Leaf in need of a faster charge.

    Good Luck!
     
  13. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

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    Just curious, at $495 each why would this be preferable to installing an outdoor 120V outlet at the end of the circuit? I can see it would be more convenient for the driver by not having to use the car's charging cable, anything else?
     
  14. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    "120V is good for trickle/maintenance charging, but is painfully slow for filling up a Model S" would be my description
     
  15. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

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    Good point reminding us warm climate people of this issue when we travel up north. The OP is in San Diego so shouldn't be an issue for him.
     
  16. tga

    tga Active Member

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    #16 tga, Aug 14, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2014
    Why would anyone bother installing a hard wired 120V EVSE? The ACS-20/ACS-15 are both $495.

    The 240V LCS-15 is cheaper at $395, while the LSC-25 is also $495.

    The wire and labor to install a 240V circuit is the same as a 120V circuit; the only additional cost is a double pole vs single pole breaker ($10, $15 difference?)

    120V EVSE == 1/2 the charge rate at the same price.

    I think the right answer is either 20A/120V outlets on a pedestal with a weatherproof cover (one pedestal between two spaces to reduce cost and risk of someone hitting it if it's in the middle of the space) and let them use their own portable EVSE, or hardwired 240V EVSE's.

    The most cost effective route I can think of is installing multiple 20A/120V circuits. Leave enough slack in the wires at the outlet to allow replacing with a 20A/240V EVSE if demand grows and you need to cut charge times in half so you shuffle cars at lunch (upgrade cost - EVSE/new breaker/labor). Ideally, spend slightly more and spec higher gauge wire so you can run 24A or more in the future.
     
  17. invisik

    invisik Member

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    +1 to 20 amp 120v--makes a pretty big difference (3mph vs 5mph charge rate that I've seen)

    Can the Volt/Leaf take advantage of the 20amp vs 15amp 120v outlet?

    -m
     
  18. derekt75

    derekt75 Member

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    I did some research, and it seems like they cannot.
    How ironic that the cars that most need to charge are the ones that have the fewest adapters for charging.

    Speaking of adapters, it seems that Tesla does not make an adapter for L21-30 outlets? I think that's what I see around here for 208 V outlets, right?
    and when I wrote "208 V", that wasn't a mistake. I think it would be inconvenient for the company to produce 240 V.
    Is it kosher to take two legs of 3 phase power to make 208 V, and put that onto a 14-30 or 14-50 connector?

    I am pushing for them to at least put in 5-20 outlets. Of course, that only really helps me if I bother to buy a $40 adapter from Tesla.
    If I get 8 kWh per day from work, and save overnight charging at $0.12/kWh, I suppose I save about $1 per work day.
    The adapter saves me an extra $0.30 or so per day, so a $40 adapter pays for itself in about 6 months.
    but that's only if I accept the hassle of moving the UMC back and forth to work every day. I suppose if someone offered me a dollar to toss my UMC into my car one time, I'd do it. but on a daily basis, well, I'm not sure if my life would be any better for it.
    I could get a 2nd UMC, but that would take years to pay off.

    Anyway,...
    I did forward the link to the ClipperCreek thing to our facilities folks, even though I don't really understand it.
    What does it do? it takes the supply and puts it onto a J1772 connector? I'd still need my UMC, right?

    For the record, I live in San Jose (Silicon Valley), not San Diego. The point about no deep freezes is accurate, but it does get below freezing here a dozen times each winter. (coldest it got last winter was 25°F).
     
  19. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

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    The Clipper Creek charging station really isn't intended for you, that's why you don't understand it. It's primarily for Leafs, Volts, etc., as Teslas generally don't do workplace charging. Even then I think a 120V outlet would work just as well for any car, the unit just eliminates the need for the Leaf or Volt driver to use his own charging cable. You would need the J1772 adapter, but not your UMC, same as using any J1772 charging station.

    NEMA 14-50 outlets work just fine on 50A 208V circuits. Almost any commercial building will have 208V rather than 240V service. The car just charges a little slower than it would at home (at 208/240 of the rate). I've never heard of any EVSE or car plugging into a L21-30 outlet.
     
  20. Chris TX

    Chris TX Active Member

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    How many EVs would take advantage of this? Not many are going to be able to accept more than 6.6kW of power and the majority will be 3.3kW. They will all be able to use a J1772 plug (even your Tesla with the included adapter) so ideally some outdoor rated EVSEs would be best. Clipper Creek makes some nice ones, as others have said. Your company might be able to apply for federal or state reimbursement for the installation of these, too.

    Asking everyone to lug their respective EVSEs to work every day is going to be a task that gets old, quickly if 110V outlets are put in. That will last for a few weeks/months then people will stop using them. You'll also run into outlet connector wear after a few months of repeated use.

    You have an opportunity to help your employer make this a success. Don't blow it! ;)

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm modifying my Volt's EVSE to use that outlet (and make it 220v). It provides a neutral which is needed for the GFCI sensing after the modification is made.
     

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