It was a 50k base price (after federal incentives / 40kWs battery) when they started to ship the car. And it is still under 100k base price, USD66k for a RWD TMS60. Maybe not very affordable, but more affordable then the Tesla Roadster.
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So we agree that they have yet to put out an affordable vehicle according to the original secret plan.
The average new car is around 33k (and that includes whatever options are included, not just the "get you in the door with a low stripped down base price"). The average out the door price of a Model S is way higher than that.
Tesla has always promoted the S as a premium vehicle, so maybe they meant "affordable for the 1 percent class" LOL.
You are shifting the goal posts.
All you need to do is look at the original plan. It's in writing. Scroll Up. It is there.
Here, I will help you.
- Build sports car
- Use that money to build an affordable car
- Use that money to build an even more affordable car
- While doing above, also provide zero emission electric power generation options
So they still haven't gotten to the second step since we agree that 100k car is not an "affordable car".
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
This argument is very ignorant.
Model S is not a "100k car". The base price for a Model S is around 60k after tax incentives. A Honda Civic sedan in top Touring trim costs around 27k including destination, but it would be inaccurate to paint the Honda Civic as a 27k car, when the baseline LX trim vehicle is around 19k.
"Affordable" is also a relative term. I know people for whom a 19k Honda Civic is not even close to affordable.
Funny you calling the argument ignorant.
I don't know why you would say the baseline price of a car defines the pricing description of the car unless you think that is the average sale is for the baseline, no option model.
The average sales price of a Model S is a lot closer to 100k than it is to 60k .
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
It is ignorant and your denial changes nothing.
The average sale price is irrelevant, because because buyers aren't required to buy a vehicle at the average price. The Model S is available to someone with a 60-65k purchasing budget.
You're not making any sense, sorry I'll have to bow out of this conversation. Model 3 will be plenty affordable, about the average car sale price in US. For those that can't afford that one, there will be ride sharing. As far as solving the sustainable transportation problem, with whatever they are coming up for urban transit plus model 3, sustainable personal travel would be available to most. Factor in some more cost reductions on batteries as they get better, and it's definitely in the bag.
No, but I hope we could agree that everything is relative. Compared to the base price of the Roadster the base price of the Model S is affordable. Compared to a Civic - or even my bank account it is not
The point of the MP#1 was not "build a car at the average car price, and then build an even cheaper car". It was all the way: start at the top price and move downwards. How far down was not mentioned in that plan.
... and by the way: the only reasonable price to look at is the base price, not the average. Just as @anticitizen13.7 wrote.
Expected starting price in Finland is guessed to be around 40k EUR. Not exactly affordable by any measure. What a strange notion to suggest that if someone cannot pay 40k EUR in a car then they shouldn't have one but should use ridesharing.
Edit: What I mean there are plenty of more affordable vehicles they are more likely to purchase. Unfortunately those vehicles are at this point ICEs.
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With fuel prices in Europe I suspect that if we look at true cost to own and operate a cheap ICE car, it would be much more at par with Model 3. But yea, that's why they want to build factories in Europe and Asia -- importing cars from US is quite inefficient.
$140K two seater is a totally different beast than an $70K family hauler. You gotta consider what is the value proposition is, Model S is a hell of a lot of value for the money. Roadster, not so much. It is clearly more affordable, just look at sales figures. Master plan didn't say "cheap car". Affordable is a relative term. If you want a luxury sedan, Model S is very price competitive within that segment.
So you believe that a car that is 2x the average price of a car and $11k more than the median U.S. household income is considered an "affordable car" even though the company markets it as a "premium" car.
Well, okay. That is the silliest thing I heard today.
The original plan said that Step 2 is an affordable car, if you think that getting all the way down to a $65k price for a stripped down model, fits the description of an "affordable" car, then you can say he accomplished Step 2.
It said an "affordable car". It didn't say price competitive, it didn't say "cheaper than the Roadster".
Remember everyone here was talking about the comparison of sales to the BMW 5 series, Mercedes S class and others - no one was comparing it to the "affordable" class of Camry, Accord, etc in terms of sales and price competitiveness. LOL.
Affordable is relative, but a car that is relatively speaking 2x the price of the average new car (almost 3x if you look at the out the door, optioned price) is hardly a car that is the category of "affordable cars".
With the 3, they will finally get close to the second step of the original secret master plan and deliver an affordable car.
BTW, someone pointed out that Musk claimed the X was step 2.5. Which is midway between an affordable car and an even more affordable car. I missed the "fact" that the X was a lot cheaper than the S.
@Drivin my man why so many words for nothing? Do you not agree that the progress on the original master plan is such that it doesn't look 10 years into the future anymore?
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
Fail.
Let's review what the original secret plan from 2006 actually said, rather than just the summary:
The Secret Tesla Motors Master Plan (just between you and me)
The fifth paragraph of the post states:
"Without giving away too much, I can say that the second model will be a sporty four door family car at roughly half the $89k price point of the Tesla Roadster and the third model will be even more affordable."
The Roadster actually ended up costing $109,000 in 2010.
But, if we first look at the original $89k cost, half of that would be $44.5k in 2006 dollars.
Accounting for inflation, using The Inflation Calculator, that's $53,377.15 in 2015 dollars. Not even close to Honda Accord territory. The most highly optioned Honda Accord V6 Touring in 2016 starts at about 35.5k.
Using the actual $109k Roadster base price in 2010, half of that is $54.5k, or $60,540.82 in 2015 dollars.
Today, a Model S 60 kWh costs about 60-65k in base trim with minor options (like metallic paint, pano roof, cold weather pkg) after available tax credits.
Your argument is not just poor -- it is completely indefensible given what Elon actually did say about the expected price of the 2nd generation car (Model S) vs. the Roadster.
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anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
The base Model S actually has a good amount of standard features for a mid-size premium/luxury sedan.
Price out a new BMW 535i RWD sedan with comparable options to a base Model S RWD on BMW USA's website. Obviously, due to the differences in options packaging, its impossible to get a 100% direct comparison, but Model S is competitive on price right out the door, and the Bimmer will cost a lot more to fuel over the long haul.
Much of the automotive and financial investment community is still in denial about what Tesla has accomplished. Some people just can't admit they are incorrect.
For the record, 8 years ago, I didn't think Tesla would go anywhere, but as the facts on the ground change, so must the conclusions.
In my opinion, SMP 2.0 is primarily written for individual consumers, not businesses. Obviously Elon has not suffered from an attack of amnesia and forgotten that Tesla Energy makes Powerwalls. In fact, Tesla has hinted that they are producing far more kilowatts of Powerwalls than Powerpacks.
As to the statements by some in this thread that the Model 3 is not an "affordable" car for the typical middle class buyer in the developed world (e.g. North America, Western Europe, much of East Asia, Australia, etc.) I think it is affordable when lifetime cost of ownership is calculated, particularly in places like Europe where gasoline costs more than double what it costs in the US.
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