What wasn't said.

[Tina C]

and it is still FAR cheaper then buying 15 to 20 gallons of gas and paying federal and state TAXES on the gas

Hmmm, brings up something to ponder. Most of the taxes on gas go to pay for road construction & maintenance. Electric cars don't pay that tax. At some point in the future the quantity of electric cars on the road will grow and the tax revenue from gas sales will decrease, yet roads still need to be built and maintained. I foresee some sort of tax on electricity when used to power electric cars, or some sort of yearly tax based on mileage for each electric car - maybe assessed when you get your yearly inspection? Nobody like taxes, but they are important to pay for common use things like roads.

 

[Red Sage]

I think they will charge a flat $2K for SC access with the base battery and include it free with the upgraded battery. Simple. And it matches the model they used for the 60 and 85 Model S.

Ah. So, charge twice as much for Supercharging... Which has already been said to be included in the base Model ☰... Than you asked for the Reservation deposit? Yeah. Sure. That'll go over like gangbusters. Hop to it! This will be fun to watch...

 

[nwdiver]

God.

WHAT!? I'm very busy... my prayer line is ringing off the hook... why is everyone asking for a Model 3?

 

[roblab]

IMO, SC use should be a per minute charge, with a sliding scale. Haven't thought about it much, but .10 a minute for the first 25 minutes, with it increasing at 10 minute increments after that would discourage people from hogging an SC space for several hours while they shop or dine. They could even have an automated system that calls/texts your cellphone to warn you of the increasing rates. The rates might have to be even higher than that, to discourage the livery/taxi people and the locals from abusing it.

I would not hesitate to say that Tesla has undoubtedly thought about it, much. And whatever we might think about it, whatever we think we might be comfortable with, whatever we think might be "fair", or whatever might discourage the seekers of free charging, Tesla will do what they need to, no matter what we think.

They have always thought things out a long way more than any of us do, before we even think of it. I am constantly amazed.

 

[Red Sage]

WHAT!? I'm very busy... my prayer line is ringing off the hook... why is everyone asking for a Model 3?

Lord? Could I please have a Model ☰ Coupe? With Falcon Wing Doors? And a Liftback? Oh, and a front end from Ferrari instead of Porsche? Thanks!

 

[ibdb]

I think you're all overthinking this. Supercharging as 'standard' means each car will be part of the network, for free. Elon has stated in the past that every Tesla will charge free for long distance travel. It's not changing. What is great though, about his wording, is that it's clear there is no fee for supercharging hardware.

Free for long-distance travel. Standard for all cars.

I heard it the same way that Bonnie did. Supercharging is an important part of what makes Tesla stand apart. I can see some sort of disincentive to prevent overuse of local charging, but it seemed clear to me that, at a minimum, free long distance supercharging was part of the message last night.

 

[vjason]

Rest assured use-based road taxes are coming. Between BEV growth and MPG improvements something has to replace declining gas tax revenues.

Only question is will those taxes replace the gas tax (simplest method), be charged to BEV only, or simply added on top (which govts would prefer I bet).

Wow, we got a bunch of lawyers here, micro-analyzing every word. Reminds me of when Bill Clinton was getting impeached and he said "It depends on what the definition of "is" is."

I wouldn't mind paying $1 or $2 to use a supercharger, I think that's only fair if we are getting supercharging ability for free, and it is still FAR cheaper then buying 15 to 20 gallons of gas and paying federal and state TAXES on the gas. Over time it will pay for itself and offset the cost of the electricity.

 

[Red Sage]

Rest assured use-based road taxes are coming. Between BEV growth and MPG improvements something has to replace declining gas tax revenues.

Only question is will those taxes replace the gas tax (simplest method), be charged to BEV only, or simply added on top (which govts would prefer I bet).

Yes. Because your local Congressman is certain to be convinced that 100 MPGe electric vehicles that have 0.03% of the market absolutely must pay their 'fair share' of road upkeep at a rate 3000% higher than big rigs that haul petroleum products to gas stations. Political Logic for the win... Or... Loss?

 

[pmich80]

Gee. Yet more people who don't use SCs trying so hard to find ways to charge people who do or might. Two years from now, no less. That would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

Shifting to the big picture, think of things from a production perspective. Much easier to build a car with the sensors and other hardware and to then enable functionality via software. Are there caveats? Sure - some hardware is more expensive than others.

Potential scenario:
Here's a car. Want SC access? $2500 please. Want AP convenience features? $2500 please. Want dual charging? $2000 please. Want them all enabled on Day 1? Great. $5000 please. Win Win.

This doesn't have to be hard.

Under no circumstances is some hinky pay per use nightmare even remotely necessary for SC usage. Not now, not in 2 years, not even in 5 years and maybe not even in 10. It was Straubel I believe who was quoted as saying that at a million vehicles they'd have to have another look at the business model. We are a long way from a million Teslas. No handwringing or schemes to nickel and dime owners needed in the meantime.

I completely agree with this post that there's no chance it would be a pay per use. First of all, if it was, they'd be treated as selling electricity which would be a huge problem so the best option is to just have a flat fee. I personally think that it'll be free for everyone. Elon wants it to be adopted by everyone so he'll make it standard no questions ask.

 

[neroden]

IMO, SC use should be a per minute charge, with a sliding scale.

If I were Tesla I would charge for parking the same way cities charge for parking at parking meters. There's an entire literature on this. The main goal of the pricing is to keep enough spaces open at any given time that anyone coming to an event or a business can find a space. Which is the same goal as Tesla would have. $1/hr is typical in smaller cities, $2/hr is common in bigger cities, free is typical in rural areas. Payment is usually done in incredibly low-tech ways Tesla can buy a parking meter device off the shelf since various sorts are used by so many parking lots.

 

[neroden]

It was Straubel I believe who was quoted as saying that at a million vehicles they'd have to have another look at the business model. We are a long way from a million Teslas.

No we're not... with this reservation rate, we could have a million reserved by the end of the year...

I still think the business model is fine. The problem is congestion and lines at the Superchargers. That's what some sort of "parking fee" would help with, by discouraging locals and taxis from hogging them.

 

[Saghost]

If I were Tesla I would charge for parking the same way cities charge for parking at parking meters. There's an entire literature on this. The main goal of the pricing is to keep enough spaces open at any given time that anyone coming to an event or a business can find a space. Which is the same goal as Tesla would have. $1/hr is typical in smaller cities, $2/hr is common in bigger cities, free is typical in rural areas. Payment is usually done in incredibly low-tech ways Tesla can buy a parking meter device off the shelf since various sorts are used by so many parking lots.

Hmm... This is interesting. Supercharging remains free, but in congested city areas you charge for the parking place just like the various commercial lots do. Still have all the annoying billing overhead, but it's not completely undoable.

I'm still expecting Tesla to suck up whatever expense they have to for the marketing benefits of offering it free, but this is a more interesting alternative than anything else I've seen suggested.

 

[vjason]

Yes. Because your local Congressman is certain to be convinced that 100 MPGe electric vehicles that have 0.03% of the market absolutely must pay their 'fair share' of road upkeep at a rate 3000% higher than big rigs that haul petroleum products to gas stations. Political Logic for the win... Or... Loss?

Higher mpg cars are part of the "issue" to of course.

But of course what about vehicle weight? Which actually does impact road wear, and should be taken into account to be fair. Something to remind our legislators of when the time comes.

Just saying to watch out. Oregon started a pilot last year: Oregon to try U.S.'s first mileage-based road tax

And Cali looks to start: California Committee Explores Road Usage Charge In Place Of Gas Tax

 

[proven]

Part of the confusion for me is that Elon said "All Model 3's will come with Supercharging, standard." However, the slideshow behind him said "Supercharging Capability"--along with the website saying Supercharging Capable. Those are two different things to me. Something being capable doesn't necessarily mean it has it by default. But he said verbally that they have it as a standard feature.

 

[Saghost]

Higher mpg cars are part of the "issue" to of course.

But of course what about vehicle weight? Which actually does impact road wear, and should be taken into account to be fair. Something to remind our legislators of when the time comes.

Just saying to watch out. Oregon started a pilot last year: Oregon to try U.S.'s first mileage-based road tax

And Cali looks to start: California Committee Explores Road Usage Charge In Place Of Gas Tax

Unless I'm missing something, Georgia already did it - In April of 2015 they killed the state income tax credit and attached a $200 fee to annual renewal for EVs only to cover the road usage:

States Used to Help People Buy Electric Cars. Now They Punish Them for It.

 

[AC238]

I don't see the problem with more people using the Superchargers unless they are abusing it (i.e. never charging at home) or taking up spots from people that really need it for long trips.

Superchargers for the most part use renewable energy so it's actually better if you're trying to be "green"

Tesla already sends letters that read

“The Supercharger Network’s intent remains to expand and enhance your long distance travel while providing the flexibility for occasional needed use during local trips. Our goal is to provide the best charging experience, keeping charge times low to get you back on the road as quickly as possible. As a frequent user of local Superchargers, we ask that you decrease your local Supercharging and promptly move your Model S once charging is complete….”​

 

[vjason]

NC did too ($100): NC electric car drivers begin paying $100 annual fee

Time will tell if that is enough cash to keep the state happy.

That being said, have you ever read about any state that is happy with their current road tax revenues? Mileage-based use taxes will happen, it's just a matter of time.

Unless I'm missing something, Georgia already did it - In April of 2015 they killed the state income tax credit and attached a $200 fee to annual renewal for EVs only to cover the road usage:

States Used to Help People Buy Electric Cars. Now They Punish Them for It.

 

[EVNow]

Unless I'm missing something, Georgia already did it - In April of 2015 they killed the state income tax credit and attached a $200 fee to annual renewal for EVs only to cover the road usage:

States Used to Help People Buy Electric Cars. Now They Punish Them for It.

OR is piloting a per mile charge for all cars (not just EVs).

BTW, in WA we pay an annual plugin tax but we also get sales tax exemption

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Hmmm, brings up something to ponder. Most of the taxes on gas go to pay for road construction & maintenance. Electric cars don't pay that tax. At some point in the future the quantity of electric cars on the road will grow and the tax revenue from gas sales will decrease, yet roads still need to be built and maintained. I foresee some sort of tax on electricity when used to power electric cars, or some sort of yearly tax based on mileage for each electric car - maybe assessed when you get your yearly inspection? Nobody like taxes, but they are important to pay for common use things like roads.

It's not really a difficult _technical_ problem. You pay based on miles traveled and maybe according to vehicle weight.
We have GPS devices. There is now NMVTIS, a central titling system for vehicles.
Oregon's doing a pilot now.

If you want accuracy you need detailed tracking of movement. When, where and in what vehicle.
If you want privacy, expect to pay more.

The _transition_ is the problem.
If there were gasoline vehicles and BEVs it'd be easy. But there are PHEVs and they'd use both payment systems.
If there were a national system, it'd be easy. But you can bet there won't be a national system.

 

[nwdiver]

Part of the confusion for me is that Elon said "All Model 3's will come with Supercharging, standard." However, the slideshow behind him said "Supercharging Capability"--along with the website saying Supercharging Capable. Those are two different things to me. Something being capable doesn't necessarily mean it has it by default. But he said verbally that they have it as a standard feature.

Hardware vs Software;

Every '3' will have all the autopilot and supercharger hardware... but you have to pay extra for autopilot and you may have to pay extra for supercharging... both can be activated remotely after purchase.