What will separate S from 3?

[zenmaster]

It's unknown and i would argue also not that interesting by itself. And there's a very small difference in wheelbase between the 3 and the S:

Then add that the 3 has lower Cd and is narrower then the S so it will need a much smaller battery then the S to get the same range. So i doubt that the physical space will be the limiting factor for the Model 3s range vs Model S.

It may not be a significantly limiting factor for relative range, but it would be a significantly limiting factor for range potential in general. This is an important consideration for Tesla as the market sees more competition. If it turns out they boxed themselves into a non-competitive range for this platform, it'd be expensive to redesign for another.

 

[zenmaster]

I lol people who think the S will be dropped in favor of 3. Lots of people don't even flinch to drop $100k-$150k in a car. Why would Tesla ignore that market segment. All manufaturers want to be in that segment which has the highest profit margins. A larger more expensive car is always more prestigious than a smaller car. That's why we have S, 7, A8, LS. It doesn't cost manufacturers that much more to build a larger car but they sell them for more hence larger profits.

Yes,"flagship" type cars have historically sold well and greatly help to recoup the upfront R&D costs. However, in the EV market, the battery tech is something that is going to be concurrently used across platforms as range is single most important must-have option.

 

[Laban]

It may not be a significantly limiting factor for relative range, but it would be a significantly limiting factor for range potential in general. This is an important consideration for Tesla as the market sees more competition. If it turns out they boxed themselves into a non-competitive range for this platform, it'd be expensive to redesign for another.

True, but this is a limitation that it will share with all the similarly sized cars. And besides, the Bolt has a 60 kWh pack and it's 164 inches long, the Model 3 is 184 inches if the motortrend measurements are correct. So i'm not that worried when it comes to the maximum kWh battery pack that the Model 3 can handle, even with the current technology.

 

[Booga]

Agreed... Or at least the S will lose a far greater share. I and several Tesla owners have discussed buying a model three versus a model S all of us plan to buy a model three. I personally think it looks better with sharper lines and that awesome Glass windshield plus it will be much lighter and therefore have better range given the same battery size. I just don't see why I would buy a model S base price that is double the price of the model three when they are very comparable currently. Amenities only in the model S will either have to go way up without the price changing significantly or the price will have to come down to not lose market share to the model three. I believe the company doesn't care if it loses that marketshare they expect it.

This is partially making me wonder if the nature of the Model 3 will lend it to less configuration by the customer. In an effort to make it mass production, will they possibly provide 2-3 major option sets and expect people to pick between them rather than selecting each individual feature? Some are software and so Autopilot doesn't have to be bundled, but maybe others will. (I'm expecting range upgrade + awd to be bundled for example)

 

[NoTDI]

This is partially making me wonder if the nature of the Model 3 will lend it to less configuration by the customer. In an effort to make it mass production, will they possibly provide 2-3 major option sets and expect people to pick between them rather than selecting each individual feature? Some are software and so Autopilot doesn't have to be bundled, but maybe others will. (I'm expecting range upgrade + awd to be bundled for example)

How about:
1. Base $35k
2. Premium $39k (nav, power seats, heated seats, LED interior, dimming mirrors)
3. Premium "FAST" $49k (AWD, battery)
4. Premium Luxury $49k (auto pilot, wheels, paint, sunroof, leather, sport seats, LED headlights, hifi)
5. Premium Luxury "FAST" $59k
Plus options:
Air suspension $2k
Performance $15k
subzero $1k
Total $77k

 

[landis]

because it has already been answer by the concept Model 3. 20% smaller than the S would have ended to questions for me. If you need the size then the S is the one but if you do not need a car that big then go with the 3.

The 'definition' of 20% smaller was raised months ago on the forum.
Why do you say it isn't 20% smaller?
My read of the physics is that the goal is roughly 20% less volume. A 20% decrease in all three dimensions would result in decrease much more than 20%. Has anyone actually shared calculations from estimates of length * width * height?

 

[wdolson]

I'm repeating myself. but the model 2 will be the car we thought we were going to get in the model 3.



Nope. Straubel gave the stat on the number of parts shared between the vehicles. They built a new skateboard, and the car primarily share dash components.

I don't see anything about this anywhere. From what I've seen so far, it looks to me that the underlying structure of the Model S and X are identical. The refresh of the Model S brought a few things inline with the X like the charger, but the two already shared quite a bit below the floor.

Looking at the dimensions, the Model X's wheelbase is officially 0.2 inches longer than the S, but the front and rear track are identical. It would be lunacy to redesign the platform to get 0.2 inches of length.

@melindav : great minds think alike

I agree about the size/price of the smaller car (Fiesta..). The four most sold cars in Europe 2015 are the VW Golf/Polo, Ford Fiesta and Renault Clio, they sell 760k of these combined/year. All Bolt size cars. So i'm expecting something like those cars and with a ~20k price. And a better looking car then the Bolt, f.e like the Renault Clio:

Those smaller cars are definitely very popular in other parts of the world, but they don't sell very well in the US. When Tesla is ready to expand their production into other regions with new factories, starting production of a subcompact in one of those regions would probably be a good move. They would sell some in the US, but they will sell more Model 3s here than subcompacts.

 

[wdolson]

How does the height of the model S battery pack compare to the height of the model 3 battery pack?

I recall some people speculating from the images shown at the Model 3 reveal that the battery cells in the Model 3 are oriented horizontal instead of vertical like the Model S/X platform (you appear to be the only person on the planet claiming the S and X are different platforms). This would allow for a shallower battery pack, but less overall volume.

I think this question is late to the game because it has already been answer by the concept Model 3. 20% smaller than the S would have ended to questions for me. If you need the size then the S is the one but if you do not need a car that big then go with the 3.

The 3 in reality is about 90% the size of the S.

 

[wdolson]

This is partially making me wonder if the nature of the Model 3 will lend it to less configuration by the customer. In an effort to make it mass production, will they possibly provide 2-3 major option sets and expect people to pick between them rather than selecting each individual feature? Some are software and so Autopilot doesn't have to be bundled, but maybe others will. (I'm expecting range upgrade + awd to be bundled for example)

Car manufacturers went with option packages some time ago to save manufacturing effort. Most have basic trim models, then some trim packages that can be added at each trim level. That makes more sense for the Model 3.

The 'definition' of 20% smaller was raised months ago on the forum.
Why do you say it isn't 20% smaller?
My read of the physics is that the goal is roughly 20% less volume. A 20% decrease in all three dimensions would result in decrease much more than 20%. Has anyone actually shared calculations from estimates of length * width * height?

A reduction of 20% in each dimension of the Model S would result in a car approaching the size of a Smart car. A 20% volume decrease was the only reasonable takeaway from that comment. In reality the Model 3 is closer to 90% the size of the Model S, only a 10% decrease.

 

[kort677]

You're putting words in my mouth. The S has far more room for a battery and with a much higher price point it's more economically feasible for tesla to put larger/more exotic batteries in it. It has nothing to do with artificially limiting range.

I think you are discounting the advances that will be coming that will give the cars more range with less or smaller batteries.

 

[newtman]

I think you are discounting the advances that will be coming that will give the cars more range with less or smaller batteries.

Not at all, just assuming the S will get any advances the 3 will.

 

[electracity]

I don't see anything about this anywhere. From what I've seen so far, it looks to me that the underlying structure of the Model S and X are identical. The refresh of the Model S brought a few things inline with the X like the charger, but the two already shared quite a bit below the floor.

Looking at the dimensions, the Model X's wheelbase is officially 0.2 inches longer than the S, but the front and rear track are identical. It would be lunacy to redesign the platform to get 0.2 inches of length.

Its from an interview with Straubel which is referenced in wikipedia:

"The Model X weighs about 8% more than the Model S and shares about 30% of its parts content – down from around 60% expected when development began."

 

[aronth5]

3 main reasons to pick the Model S
-Obvious advantage for the Model S is greater range due to the larger space for more batteries
-Larger size for both cargo and people
-I hadn't really thought of this until now but many were surprised the Model 3 was a sedan and not a liftback like the Model S. One wonders if this wasn't done to help protect Model S sales.
For many the sedan style smaller trunk opening of the Model 3 is the reason to either purchase the Model S or wait until the lift back is announced. Certainly a smart move on Tesla's part even though my preference is a lift back.

 

[contaygious]

Yes the hatchback, the dashboard, the 17 inch screen, the real room in the back for adults, better headroom too. I would have thought the 3 was a lot smaller judging by reviews of those sitting inside. With the cost savings tesla did by omitting a dash it is clear to me that the 3 is not supposed to be their high luxury car. I think when people see it in person they will realize corners had to be cut in build quality and the little details that make a 100k car a 100k car vs a 35k car. Nothing wrong with the latter as I think it looks great! I doubt they ever get rid of s, but i think they will push it to be super luxury akin to a 200k panamera.

 

[wdolson]

Its from an interview with Straubel which is referenced in wikipedia:

"The Model X weighs about 8% more than the Model S and shares about 30% of its parts content – down from around 60% expected when development began."

This line is quoted all over the net, but it appears everyone lifted it from the Wikipedia article and that line in the Wikipedia article doesn't have any citation. There is no information about what is included in that 30%. After the Model S refresh the percentage of shared parts has gone up, but I doubt it's much about 40% now.

I still see no evidence that the Model X has a different platform from the Model S.

 

[FloridaJohn]

Its from an interview with Straubel which is referenced in wikipedia:

"The Model X weighs about 8% more than the Model S and shares about 30% of its parts content – down from around 60% expected when development began."

That same Wikipedia page also says, "The Model X was developed from the full-sized sedan platform of the Tesla Model S"

That 30% of shared parts could easily be the chassis.

 

[AC238]

The way I see it for Model S:

• Slightly larger , More cargo space
• Hatchback
  
• More performance available
• More technology
• More options/customizing

What I hope for the model 3:

• easier to maneuver (minimally smaller turning circle)
• easier to find parking spot due to shorter length & width
• lower maintenance / repair costs due to less complexity (i.e. steel , no popping handles)
• Better efficiency due to lower size and lower coefficient of drag (may be lower due to steel weight , but high strength steel may be lighter due to less thickness required)

@melindav : great minds think alike

I agree about the size/price of the smaller car (Fiesta..). The four most sold cars in Europe 2015 are the VW Golf/Polo, Ford Fiesta and Renault Clio, they sell 760k of these combined/year. All Bolt size cars. So i'm expecting something like those cars and with a ~20k price. And a better looking car then the Bolt, f.e like the Renault Clio:

I don't think a <$25K base price Tesla is feasible at this time unless they strip it down of all technology besides the EV portion (ala Nissan Leaf which basically is similar to a Versa) , make the car & wheelbase even smaller (compact / C-segment/ Toyota Prius/Ford Focus /Honda Civic /Mazda 3 / Subaru Impreza sub 185" length , OR sub-compact / B segment / Ford Fiesta / Ford C-max /Honda Fit/scion ia size , sub 180" length), and acquire the battery far cheaper. If they do make it a car that is shorter than 180" , to keep practicality it would likely have to be a hatchback (Ford Fiesta/Ford C-max/Honda Fit ). Once you take away the luxury/performance and features, you're competing vs Nissan Leaf , Ford Focus Energi / C-Max energi, Fiat 500e (California). It's also much harder to get a 5 star crash rating when there is less space for the crumple zones , so I doubt they will go subcompact.

 

[Laban]

Those smaller cars are definitely very popular in other parts of the world, but they don't sell very well in the US. When Tesla is ready to expand their production into other regions with new factories, starting production of a subcompact in one of those regions would probably be a good move. They would sell some in the US, but they will sell more Model 3s here than subcompacts.

True. But Tesla has the Y + Roadster to make before this car, and perhaps even a pickup. So i'm guessing that the new factories will be in place by then.

VW sales in the US: VOLKSWAGEN OF AMERICA REPORTS JANUARY 2016 SALES RESULTS : Volkswagen Media Centre

Golf = 1/2 of the Jetta sales. Not that bad ?

But i was surprised about the size of the Jetta, it's only 168 inches long, and Volkswagens top selling car worldwide for that matter. So perhaps i was wrong in assuming that Tesla won't make a smaller sedan then the Model 3. But i have, in my defence, been looking mostly on the premium brands like f.e Audi, BMW. And their smallest sedans (Audi A3, BMW 2) are a bit bigger then the Jetta, and also rather expensive. Not the "90% of the people can afford" type of car(s) that Elon was talking about in Norway.

 

[alseTrick]

I don't think a <$25K base price Tesla is feasible at this time unless they strip it down of all technology besides the EV portion (ala Nissan Leaf which basically is similar to a Versa) , make the car & wheelbase even smaller (compact / C-segment/ Toyota Prius/Ford Focus /Honda Civic /Mazda 3 / Subaru Impreza sub 185" length , OR sub-compact / B segment / Ford Fiesta / Ford C-max /Honda Fit/scion ia size , sub 180" length), and acquire the battery far cheaper. If they do make it a car that is shorter than 180" , to keep practicality it would likely have to be a hatchback (Ford Fiesta/Ford C-max/Honda Fit ). Once you take away the luxury/performance and features, you're competing vs Nissan Leaf , Ford Focus Energi / C-Max energi, Fiat 500e (California). It's also much harder to get a 5 star crash rating when there is less space for the crumple zones , so I doubt they will go subcompact.

Oh I definitely think Tesla will build a smaller non-Roadster vehicle than the Model 3 in the next decade. They pretty much have to. The coupe/2-door hatchback market is sizable.

 

[Laban]

It's also much harder to get a 5 star crash rating when there is less space for the crumple zones , so I doubt they will go subcompact.

Not sure about the US but the european crash ratings takes the size of the car into consideration, lots of small cars have 5 star ratings. And the Golf GTI have a overall 5 star rating in the US.

And the crumple zone is the main advantage when for electric cars so i think it would be easy to make a 5 star subcompact electric car.