What's the likelihood we will see Speed Limit Sign recognition?

[PhilDavid]

It seems around where we live they are constantly changing speed limits with some changes in the 10mph range. These changes make Autopilot speed limit offsets not accurate and I would love to reliably know the correct speed limit by loking at the IC.

I heard something about MobileEye having a patent for this (surprised that patent is not subject to prior work, but that's a different topic altogether), but surely by now Tesla has patents of their own for autonomous driving that perhaps MobileEye might be infringing on.

How likely and when do you think we will see speed limit sign recognition? At the least, whenever a Tesla encounters a speed limit sign that is contrary to what is in the database, perhaps it can upload the video and someone can then manually update the speed limit in the map database to get around any patent issues or perhaps if the pattern recognition is done "offline" with the map database updated it gets around whatever patent that might be in the way right now?

Seems this is just a variant of OCR that has been around forever. The speed limit sign recognition would be so useful when driving in an unfamiliar area.

 

[bmah]

Those of us with old, obsolete AP1 cars have had this capability for years.

Bruce.

 

[PhilDavid]

So the solution is to find an AP1 car and have AP2/2.5/3 drive behind it at the correct speed limit!

 

[animorph]

I'm positive it is required for FSD. It would be pretty disastrous for it to drive by itself with the speed limit info it currently uses. It's funny when we're on the highway and it thinks the speed limit has changed to 55 MPH. Then back to 65 MPH. Then you get to where the construction work is this year and it doesn't know the speed limit there is 55 MPH. Not to mention it doesn't have any speed limit info for many local roads.

 

[jorobsand]

How likely and when do you think we will see speed limit sign recognition? At the least, whenever a Tesla encounters a speed limit sign that is contrary to what is in the database, perhaps it can upload the video and someone can then manually update the speed limit in the map database to get around any patent issues or perhaps if the pattern recognition is done "offline" with the map database updated it gets around whatever patent that might be in the way right now?

My understanding is that AP2/2.5/3 use a 3rd party database that is part of the map data package for speed limits. I think this pretty much means that the speed limit data is hands-off for Tesla and they can read but can't write.

My completely uneducated best-guess for how this will be solved for FSD is that Tesla will be more inclined to use real-time road, traffic and weather conditions to determine the most appropriate speeds. Now I don't think this means that given clear conditions and no traffic that your Tesla will start doing 120+ mph, but rather it will still use other means (e.g. crowd-sourced data from other cars traveling that same road) to determine a safe and legal speed.

 

[PhilDavid]

My understanding is that AP2/2.5/3 use a 3rd party database that is part of the map data package for speed limits. I think this pretty much means that the speed limit data is hands-off for Tesla and they can read but can't write.

My completely uneducated best-guess for how this will be solved for FSD is that Tesla will be more inclined to use real-time road, traffic and weather conditions to determine the most appropriate speeds. Now I don't think this means that given clear conditions and no traffic that your Tesla will start doing 120+ mph, but rather it will still use other means (e.g. crowd-sourced data from other cars traveling that same road) to determine a safe and legal speed.

But we are not talking about fancy real time conditions for now... Just reading the speed limit signs. They obviously can do this now but for some reason it's not part of the feature set. I thought it was due to a patent issue with MobileEye and if that's the case, I hope they figure out a way to get around that soon as the speed limited around where I live keep changing and I'd love to see on the IC the actual last speed limit sign the car saw.

 

[drklain]

They've already announced that an upcoming release (in Beta now) can read speed limit signs in variable speed areas/construction zones so clearly they have a workaround the Mobileye patent and are starting to roll this out. Now how quickly we'll see that among the general car population? Soon?

 

[PhilDavid]

They've already announced that an upcoming release (in Beta now) can read speed limit signs in variable speed areas/construction zones so clearly they have a workaround the Mobileye patent and are starting to roll this out. Now how quickly we'll see that among the general car population? Soon?

That's great to hear! Do you remember where you saw the announcement?

Next to them fixing the USB media player, this is second on my software wish list

 

[drklain]

Read it on Electrek -- Tesla releases a bunch of updates to Sentry mode, Driving Visualization, and more (see note on conditional speed limit signs)

 

[ucmndd]

Read it on Electrek -- Tesla releases a bunch of updates to Sentry mode, Driving Visualization, and more (see note on conditional speed limit signs)

I don’t take that to mean the new firmware is reading signs, rather that it can display variable limits based on conditions or other variables. For example, Arizona has some roads marked as “45mph, 35mph at night”. Some roads have lower limits when it’s raining (so if wipers are on). Stuff like that. An additional layer of granularity in the database they’re using.

 

[bob_p]

FSD approval will likely require vehicles strictly adhere to traffic laws, which would include speed limit signs (and responding to directions from police/first responders, which will be an interesting challenge).

Musk stated recently an upcoming release this year would recognize traffic signs.

The AP software should be using multiple information sources to determine vehicle speed - traffic signs, up-to-date speed limit data base, speed of surrounding traffic, road conditions (rain, snow, fog, ice, debris/potholes in the roadbed, …).

A major obstacle for speed limit sign recognition is the lack of standardization of placement and how to handle ambiguous signs located between adjacent roads (HOV lanes, main lanes, exit/entry ramps, frontage roads, …). Plus speed limit signs can be hidden by adjacent vehicles.

Assuming internet connectivity and an increasing number of Tesla vehicles on the road, Tesla should have the ability to have pretty accurate speed limit information, if they have vehicles report discrepancies between the speed limit database and the posted signs, and then distribute those updates to vehicles travelling along the same roads.

We're not there today - and relying on the out-of-date onboard speed limit database introduces a number of problems, which won't be acceptable for FSD approval.

 

[PhilDavid]

FSD approval will likely require vehicles strictly adhere to traffic laws, which would include speed limit signs (and responding to directions from police/first responders, which will be an interesting challenge).

Musk stated recently an upcoming release this year would recognize traffic signs.

The AP software should be using multiple information sources to determine vehicle speed - traffic signs, up-to-date speed limit data base, speed of surrounding traffic, road conditions (rain, snow, fog, ice, debris/potholes in the roadbed, …).

A major obstacle for speed limit sign recognition is the lack of standardization of placement and how to handle ambiguous signs located between adjacent roads (HOV lanes, main lanes, exit/entry ramps, frontage roads, …). Plus speed limit signs can be hidden by adjacent vehicles.

Assuming internet connectivity and an increasing number of Tesla vehicles on the road, Tesla should have the ability to have pretty accurate speed limit information, if they have vehicles report discrepancies between the speed limit database and the posted signs, and then distribute those updates to vehicles travelling along the same roads.

We're not there today - and relying on the out-of-date onboard speed limit database introduces a number of problems, which won't be acceptable for FSD approval.

When FSD comes out, local regulatory bodies will then need to accept that fact that traffic moves around 5-7mph over the limit and a vehicle strictly going at the speed limit will clog traffic and make traffic worse.

But I agree, we need speed limit sign recognition for FSD. I bet Tesla has this already working. We are just not seeing it in the UI. Some roads here have had the speed limit reduced by 10mph and with the offset of +5 that I've set, we are now looking at 15 over the limit when I engage AP sometimes because the speed limit the car thinks is valid is off by quite a bit....

 

[jorobsand]

When FSD comes out, local regulatory bodies will then need to accept that fact that traffic moves around 5-7mph over the limit and a vehicle strictly going at the speed limit will clog traffic and make traffic worse.

I agree with this. To me, it's no different than autopilot currently letting you set a cruise speed over the speed limit (but capped on certain roads) despite the Tesla having access to speed limits (database or vision).

Ultimately, the driver will be accountable for obeying all traffic laws, not the car.

 

[bob_p]

Enforcement of traffic laws - such as speed limit or coming to a complete stop at an intersection - usually allows drivers to technically break the law since it's not practical to strictly enforce those laws. But that doesn't invalidate those laws. If a driver does get a ticket for driving above the posted speed limit or by rolling through a stop sign or right turn on red, it's unlikely you'll be able to avoid paying the fine because other drivers aren't being cited for the same violations.

While there may be an adverse impact on traffic flow by forcing FSD vehicles to strictly adhere to the traffic laws, we shouldn't be surprised to see this as a requirement for certification.

Longer term, we'll eventually reach a point when the number of FSD vehicles is high enough to start seeing some roads restricted to FSD vehicles only - perhaps starting with HOV lanes. And when that happens, the posted speed limit could be increased - especially if the FSD vehicles are all electric (eliminating the pollution concerns). If there aren't any human drivers on the road, FSD vehicles should be safe to operate at much higher speeds.

As least when FSD vehicles are first approved for use, don't be surprised if FSD vehicles take longer to complete trips - by forcing them to drive no faster than the posted speed limits.

 

[aesculus]

While there may be an adverse impact on traffic flow by forcing FSD vehicles to strictly adhere to the traffic laws, we shouldn't be surprised to see this as a requirement for certification.

Exactly.

IMHO I think this is one of the big drivers of FSD. It would really help traffic flow and reduce accidents if ALL vehicles were traveling at the same speed. Plus the fact that a computer(s) probably WILL BE a better driver than a human at some point too, especially distracted drivers.

The transition period will be rough but you have to start somewhere. And I would guess that once the bulk of cars have FSD then they will start tightening down on "fringe" drivers who are still operating manually WRT speeds.

 

[RDoc]

But we are not talking about fancy real time conditions for now... Just reading the speed limit signs. They obviously can do this now but for some reason it's not part of the feature set. I thought it was due to a patent issue with MobileEye and if that's the case, I hope they figure out a way to get around that soon as the speed limited around where I live keep changing and I'd love to see on the IC the actual last speed limit sign the car saw.

I'm very skeptical that MobileEye, or anyone, has a patent on reading speed limit signs. Can you provide a link to that?

 

[PhilDavid]

I'm very skeptical that MobileEye, or anyone, has a patent on reading speed limit signs. Can you provide a link to that?

Not sure where I've read this but I've seen this mentioned several times. If this is a patent issue, I hope they figure out a solution soon, especially given Tesla's own patents and the fact that MobileEye is now owned by Intel.

Just researched very quickly and found this -- Not sure how well such a patent could stand up to scrutiny/challenge.

US20080137908A1 - Detecting and recognizing traffic signs - Google Patents
AUTONOMOUS VEHICLE SPEED CALIBRATION - Mobileye Vision Technologies Ltd.

 

[DCEV]

Not sure where I've read this but I've seen this mentioned several times. If this is a patent issue, I hope they figure out a solution soon, especially given Tesla's own patents and the fact that MobileEye is now owned by Intel.

Just researched very quickly and found this -- Not sure how well such a patent could stand up to scrutiny/challenge.

US20080137908A1 - Detecting and recognizing traffic signs - Google Patents
AUTONOMOUS VEHICLE SPEED CALIBRATION - Mobileye Vision Technologies Ltd.

So Tesla would need to work around these patents to get speed limit sign recognition to work?

 

[D.E.]

That patent seems to concentrate on recognition of signs. Suppose the software concentrates on recognition of fonts and numbers of a certain size and proximity to the road without actually searching for the sign outline. Then it might not infringe. I think that patent is specifically for single camera use. Use of two or more cameras might be something to check. Finally the patent specifies the processor must be involved in other driver assistance functions. If an additional processor was used that did not assist the driver but was solely used for traffic sign information, it might not infringe.

I think it is nuts that someone could patent the automatic recognition of speed limit and traffic signs when the express purpose of those signs is transfer of necessary regulatory information to the vehicle/driver.

 

[ramonneke]

Tesla software can already do this but it just isn't put it because of the patent. Why would they pay royalties to their competitor MobilEye while FSD is nowhere near FSD 3?

My guess is that once Tesla FSD reaches level 3 they just discuss licensing the patent with MobilEye and likely MobilEye using patents from Tesla.