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What's you maximum range?
- Thread starter westrow3
- Start date
Have a look at this new theory. Seems there’s something in it.
How I Recovered Half of my Battery's Lost Capacity
By not charging to 100% you’ve looked after your battery. Probably just needs calibrating at different SoC when the car is asleep.
How I Recovered Half of my Battery's Lost Capacity
By not charging to 100% you’ve looked after your battery. Probably just needs calibrating at different SoC when the car is asleep.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
I doubt there's been any significant degradation at all, as apps like Teslafi, or any other app for that matter, cannot actually measure the battery capacity at all. The only way to measure it would be to charge to 100% and then put the car through exactly the sequence of rolling road testing that's done for WLTP official range testing. Even then it might be necessary to do that testing a few times in order to get a valid measurement.
In service, all the car can do is guess the probable range, based on the history of the way it's been driven, the variations in temperature, humidity, etc. At best it might get within about 10% of the true range, and I have a very strong suspicion that the car errs on the side of caution, and always underestimates the remaining range.
I've once had the estimated range show 280 miles, driven for a (very squeaky bum) 263 miles and finish with 44 miles left, so the estimated range had increased by 27 miles, or just under 10%, on a single drive. I'd not recommend repeating this, it really was a bit tense in the car for the last 20 miles or so before we got home.
In service, all the car can do is guess the probable range, based on the history of the way it's been driven, the variations in temperature, humidity, etc. At best it might get within about 10% of the true range, and I have a very strong suspicion that the car errs on the side of caution, and always underestimates the remaining range.
I've once had the estimated range show 280 miles, driven for a (very squeaky bum) 263 miles and finish with 44 miles left, so the estimated range had increased by 27 miles, or just under 10%, on a single drive. I'd not recommend repeating this, it really was a bit tense in the car for the last 20 miles or so before we got home.
LongRanger
Active Member
The way I’ve looked at range is this
You have a 500 mile journey to do (not uncommon for me without Covid)
Roughly speaking, if you assume 300 miles max range (ideal top end), you are going to have to charge a couple of times to take advantage of a driving break and avoid straying into sub-20% territory with unpredictable roads.
What does it matter whether the real range if you totally maxed out is 288 or 310 ?
the whole WLTP thing for EV seems wacky to me, it just gives customers the impression that it’s a guaranteed number.
% energy remaining like an iPhone battery has been no effort at all to switch to since I collected when new and is quite liberating. the navigate to supercharger/rapid works great with % remaining too.
I understand completely if you have invested a lot of your own hard-earned money into something like this, that you want it to be in best health possible especially if you plan to keep for a fair while - but 2 things on that -
firstly we are all still guinea pigs for EV, it is still early days so “to the mile” range accuracy is impossible
- and secondly every ICE car degrades over a period of time - the performance drops and reliability decreases as cars age but as consumers we have never had API-led stats to compare to other owners over time - so again very new ways of thinking.
I bet you could get 320 miles (at least) out of your obviously well treated car from an energy management point of view
That would confuse TeslaFi but totally plausible as real max range if you worked the roads and conditions to your advantage.
Don’t sweat it !
You have a 500 mile journey to do (not uncommon for me without Covid)
Roughly speaking, if you assume 300 miles max range (ideal top end), you are going to have to charge a couple of times to take advantage of a driving break and avoid straying into sub-20% territory with unpredictable roads.
What does it matter whether the real range if you totally maxed out is 288 or 310 ?
the whole WLTP thing for EV seems wacky to me, it just gives customers the impression that it’s a guaranteed number.
% energy remaining like an iPhone battery has been no effort at all to switch to since I collected when new and is quite liberating. the navigate to supercharger/rapid works great with % remaining too.
I understand completely if you have invested a lot of your own hard-earned money into something like this, that you want it to be in best health possible especially if you plan to keep for a fair while - but 2 things on that -
firstly we are all still guinea pigs for EV, it is still early days so “to the mile” range accuracy is impossible
- and secondly every ICE car degrades over a period of time - the performance drops and reliability decreases as cars age but as consumers we have never had API-led stats to compare to other owners over time - so again very new ways of thinking.
I bet you could get 320 miles (at least) out of your obviously well treated car from an energy management point of view
That would confuse TeslaFi but totally plausible as real max range if you worked the roads and conditions to your advantage. Don’t sweat it !
I've driven 285 miles Kemnay - Inverurie-Tebay. And had 3% left. I just bring up the trip graph and drive/ adjust speed to arrive with the required percentage.. in fact I tried to arrive with 1% but since its downhill to tebay it stayed at 3%. I started at -3% and it got as low as -7% over the hills on the Aberdeen bypass.
290 should be achievable on a 18c day and relatively flat roads with no rain. I don't think I'll have a chance of direct to Tebay till next April though.
540 miles to High Wycombe is a relatively easy journey with only one energy stop. Although we generally stop again at Warwick for a pee break.
290 should be achievable on a 18c day and relatively flat roads with no rain. I don't think I'll have a chance of direct to Tebay till next April though.
540 miles to High Wycombe is a relatively easy journey with only one energy stop. Although we generally stop again at Warwick for a pee break.
akenham
M3 LR AWD+ 2020
The link to How I Recovered Half of my Battery's Lost Capacity is a good read - you might well be seeing some BMS drift making things look worse than they are however...
... even if we assume the current 100% range of 288 miles is completely accurate, 288*245/75000 = 94.1%
If this is soley due to reduction in range, I believe this is within the expected range of values for initial reduction - note that it doesn't continue at that rate - should be slow from hereon, especially as you seem to be treating your battery kindly.
However, you've got a performance model 3 which comes with 20 inch wheels which will reduce range vs. a LR AWD on 18's where you'd expect 310 miles at 100% (same battery). In all likelihood you've got less reduction than you think - it's just the larger wheels reduce your range as they're less efficient.
Note that as I understand it earlier model 3's hid any initial reduction in battery capacity from you whereas current ones expose it - the initial reduction is the no worse, but it is now visible.
akenham
M3 LR AWD+ 2020
Actually I was talking rubbish about any effect of wheels on the range stated by the battery icon - wheels will affect your effective range (as seen in the energy graph app) but the range displayed beside the battery should be purely based on rated range - wh per mile and BMS estimates of battery capacity. It does not change based on driving habits, efficiency of setup etc - those just determine how likely you are to approach rated range.
So I think you're left with
a) BMS drift estimating less capacity (normally fixed by ensuring your car sits at a few states of charge for at least 3h - no sentry, no summon standby etc)
b) some amount of real capacity reduction - which is expected and normal early in the car's life
So I think you're left with
a) BMS drift estimating less capacity (normally fixed by ensuring your car sits at a few states of charge for at least 3h - no sentry, no summon standby etc)
b) some amount of real capacity reduction - which is expected and normal early in the car's life
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Thanks, appreciate the response.The way I’ve looked at range is this
You have a 500 mile journey to do (not uncommon for me without Covid)
Roughly speaking, if you assume 300 miles max range (ideal top end), you are going to have to charge a couple of times to take advantage of a driving break and avoid straying into sub-20% territory with unpredictable roads.
What does it matter whether the real range if you totally maxed out is 288 or 310 ?
the whole WLTP thing for EV seems wacky to me, it just gives customers the impression that it’s a guaranteed number.
% energy remaining like an iPhone battery has been no effort at all to switch to since I collected when new and is quite liberating. the navigate to supercharger/rapid works great with % remaining too.
I understand completely if you have invested a lot of your own hard-earned money into something like this, that you want it to be in best health possible especially if you plan to keep for a fair while - but 2 things on that -
firstly we are all still guinea pigs for EV, it is still early days so “to the mile” range accuracy is impossible
- and secondly every ICE car degrades over a period of time - the performance drops and reliability decreases as cars age but as consumers we have never had API-led stats to compare to other owners over time - so again very new ways of thinking.
I bet you could get 320 miles (at least) out of your obviously well treated car from an energy management point of view
Don’t sweat it !
I'm really not that fussed about the deg as the car typically outlasts me on a trip (I did a 680 mile trip from the Highlands to Southampton last Sunday and I needed the stops before the car!) I was more interested in comparison with others, as you say we're all Guinea pigs and hence interested in how others are fairing.
One other point which may or may not have a baring on degradation is that the vast majority of my miles are motorway speeds (on motorways!)
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
I think it's perhaps a bit misleading to talk of degradation, as I am pretty sure this is a pretty neglibible effect, at least for the first few years of the battery pack's life. Initially, battery capacity tends to slightly increase over the first couple of cycles, then drops back to close to its rated capacity, and stays pretty much at that capacity for a long time, perhaps more than half the cycle life, before capacity starts to reduce a bit more rapidly as the cycle life limit is reached.
One thing I found with the PHEV Prius I owned for 5 years was that the EV range when I sold it, with around 60,000 on the clock, was slightly better than it was when I bought it. That car used to get charged twice a day every weekday, plus once or twice every weekend, so had many more battery cycles than the Tesla's likely to get in it's lifetime. At a guess, I'd cycled that relatively small lithium battery pack over 2,500 times, which is way more than a Tesla pack would get cycled in five years (it would be equivalent to driving over 700,000 miles in a Model 3 LR). The i3 I owned was similar,there didn't seem to be any noticeable degradation, the normal range changes seen from weather, driving style etc all massively outweighed any slight degradation there may have been. After 7 years of PHEV/EV driving I'm convinced that battery degradation is not really worth worrying about, as there are far too many bigger impacts on range.
One thing I found with the PHEV Prius I owned for 5 years was that the EV range when I sold it, with around 60,000 on the clock, was slightly better than it was when I bought it. That car used to get charged twice a day every weekday, plus once or twice every weekend, so had many more battery cycles than the Tesla's likely to get in it's lifetime. At a guess, I'd cycled that relatively small lithium battery pack over 2,500 times, which is way more than a Tesla pack would get cycled in five years (it would be equivalent to driving over 700,000 miles in a Model 3 LR). The i3 I owned was similar,there didn't seem to be any noticeable degradation, the normal range changes seen from weather, driving style etc all massively outweighed any slight degradation there may have been. After 7 years of PHEV/EV driving I'm convinced that battery degradation is not really worth worrying about, as there are far too many bigger impacts on range.
I read this before, then let my car sleep at several different SoC including down at 20%, it certainly seemed to make some effect to the cars prediction.
But its all cosmetic, just a prediction, doesn't really change the range if you were driving.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
Exactly this ^^^^
The one time I drove the car close to its range limit it miraculously found it had at least 10% more range than predicted at the start of the journey. IIRC, this was also seen in one of the road tests, where the Model 3 kept going for a fair distance longer than the predicted range. Mind you, I'm sure people have also seen the opposite, where the range remaining has dropped faster than predicted.
There's a lot to be said for ignoring predicted range and driving the car as if it had a fuel tank. I don't think I ever owned a car with an accurate fuel gauge, so using the guestimated remaining battery capacity % display in the Model 3 is probably significantly more accurate, in terms of estimating remaining range, than any conventional car fuel gauge.
Yesterday I parked at B&Q with 42% battery ... spent 20 minutes in the shop and came back to 44%! Doesn't happen very often ... and never with an ICE fuel gauge! In this instance I believe it to have been due to some battery percentage recovery having started the day with a cold battery and an initially underreported battery percentage.
Glan gluaisne
Active Member
Happened to me earlier this week. I charged overnight to 90%, got in the car later that morning and it was showing 92%. I think it must be a temperature thing, but if the % figure is changing with temperature then the range guesstimate will be doing something similar, as % charge remaining must be one of the inputs to the range guesstimator.
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