What's your 90%?

[Knightowl]

charged to 100% last night by mistake after an airport run so thought I would post it here, it is winter so this is the lowest rated 100% charge as it goes up again in summer.

2014 S85
100% charge = 247mi rated @ 97,908miles

 

[unihappytime]

2 weeks old 70D 90% = typical (ideal range) 327KM (203 Miles)

average power consumption from delivery thus far is around 190wh/km (305 wh/mile).
Tesla mentions how we drive will determine the range displayed.

Just over 3 years past, my car has driven 88,xxxKM (54,xxx Miles), the 90% is now around 321KM (199 miles).
I mostly charge on medium AC chargers (32A).
I had only supercharged the car less than 20 time and around 5-6 of those times to 100% on the superchargers.

Mon - Thru I charge the car to 90%. On Fri I charge to 100% for over weekend use and top up if needed.

I normally keep my car between 240km (149 miles) to 321km (199 miles), I'd say around 50-90% state of charge, as I charge the car when I am at work.

Hong Kong temp is between 10-34 degrees C (50 to 93 F), with the odd days dropping to 5-6 C (41-43 F). Most days its above 20 C (68 F).

I drive around 70 km daily to and from work and over 80% of this is on low highway speeds 80 -100 kph (50 - 60 mph)
My average power consumption now is around 170wh/km (273 wh/mile). driving with chill mode on.



So it seems like the Tesla battery management system is quite good!

 

[andykb748]

Had my S70D a month now, bought a used (June 2016 car) with 48,000miles on it. With the unlimited mileage 8 year warranty, I figured a slightly younger higher mileage car would be better value than an older low mileage one. From figures published elsewhere, I expected to see maybe 5% loss in capacity and then it to drift very slowly lower. I've only supercharged it twice (the first day as we didn't have a charger at home or work and had to drive Wales!) but since it’s charged AC at 30A at both home and the office as needed, typically to about 80 - 90%. This weekend i tried charging it to 100% to see what max range I could get in anticipation of a 1,200 mile drive to Italy in the summer and was suprised to see only 215m at 100%. That's the equivalent of just 191 at 90%..


To me, this sounds worryingly low for a two and a half year old car? Clearly, I have no idea how well the previous owner looked after the battery, and now I'm thinking I should have asked the selling dealer what the 90/100% charge range showed!


Is this a typical/reasonable figure for the age/mileage of a S70D? The rest of the car in in perfect condition, so appear to have been well looked after.


What's worse is that I can't get anywhere near 300W/mi, typically it's 370 to 450 in everyday driving. Even on the motorway at 70mph, it only comes down to about 350.


This means I can only get about two thirds or 75% of the stated 'range'. Allowing for not running out completely, it means I can only travel about 140 miles at the absolute max before charging, and that’s assuming that range fits in with the distance to the next supercharger on a long trip..


Concerned.

 

[unihappytime]

This weekend i tried charging it to 100% to see what max range I could get in anticipation of a 1,200 mile drive to Italy in the summer and was surprised to see only 215m at 100%. That's the equivalent of just 191 at 90%..

Concerned.

For my 100% I get around 350km (217 Miles), it was around 361km (225Mile) brand new
My figures are form the typical range value NOT the rate range.

If your can get 215M @ 100%, given UK's cooler weather and your power consumption it seems like it's about right.

P.S. I used to live in Loughborough, nice!

 

[wdolson]

Had my S70D a month now, bought a used (June 2016 car) with 48,000miles on it. With the unlimited mileage 8 year warranty, I figured a slightly younger higher mileage car would be better value than an older low mileage one. From figures published elsewhere, I expected to see maybe 5% loss in capacity and then it to drift very slowly lower. I've only supercharged it twice (the first day as we didn't have a charger at home or work and had to drive Wales!) but since it’s charged AC at 30A at both home and the office as needed, typically to about 80 - 90%. This weekend i tried charging it to 100% to see what max range I could get in anticipation of a 1,200 mile drive to Italy in the summer and was suprised to see only 215m at 100%. That's the equivalent of just 191 at 90%..


To me, this sounds worryingly low for a two and a half year old car? Clearly, I have no idea how well the previous owner looked after the battery, and now I'm thinking I should have asked the selling dealer what the 90/100% charge range showed!


Is this a typical/reasonable figure for the age/mileage of a S70D? The rest of the car in in perfect condition, so appear to have been well looked after.


What's worse is that I can't get anywhere near 300W/mi, typically it's 370 to 450 in everyday driving. Even on the motorway at 70mph, it only comes down to about 350.


This means I can only get about two thirds or 75% of the stated 'range'. Allowing for not running out completely, it means I can only travel about 140 miles at the absolute max before charging, and that’s assuming that range fits in with the distance to the next supercharger on a long trip..


Concerned.

Some possible reasons for high energy usage:
1) You use the brake pedal too much and/or have regen set low.
2) You carry a lot of extra weight
3) You run around with the car heated to a nice toasty temperature in cold weather
4) You drive very fast

It was around 10C here today and I made two trips and got under 300 Wh/Mi each round trip. I have regen set to high and rarely touch the brake pedal going more than 5 mph. The few times I've had to make a quick stop and not able to maximize regen, I see it in my Wh/Mi when I get home.

Electric motors are staggeringly more efficient than ICE. With an ICE, you can develop all sorts of bad habits and you usually don't see a huge drop in efficiency because your efficiency was so poor to start with. But with electric motors you can get 70-80% efficiency in the real world and occasionally get to 90% in ideal conditions (tail wind, or driving around 50 kph). Anything that lowers efficiency is going to really trash your range.

The heater in an ICE uses waste heat from the engine, so if anything, it might help a bit to run the heater. However there is not enough waste heat with an EV, so you need to burn energy to heat the car. Tesla uses a resistive heater which gives you instant heat, but really uses up battery energy.

With the phone app you can heat up the car before driving while it's still plugged in and drive off with the car warm and the heat off. In the depths of winter I put it on high and can usually get 10-20 miles down the road on a normal winter day (our winters are similar to southern England) before it starts getting chilly in the car. As the weather gets warmer I don't bother to preheat.

Air conditioning is much more efficient than heating. I see the best Wh/Mi in spring and summer when temps are around 15-20C, but even in the summer when temps are around 35C I can still get around 300 Wh/Mi fairly consistently. In mild temps I get around 285 Wh/Mi.

 

[andykb748]

For my 100% I get around 350km (217 Miles), it was around 361km (225Mile) brand new
My figures are form the typical range value NOT the rate range.

If your can get 215M @ 100%, given UK's cooler weather and your power consumption it seems like it's about right.

P.S. I used to live in Loughborough, nice!

Sounds almost exactly like mine, from a capacity point of view, after 50K miles. Is yours a 70D too?

Unfortunately my 40 - 50 mile daily round trip is all cross country, so no real freeway driving.

 

[andykb748]

Some possible reasons for high energy usage:
1) You use the brake pedal too much and/or have regen set low.
2) You carry a lot of extra weight
3) You run around with the car heated to a nice toasty temperature in cold weather
4) You drive very fast

It was around 10C here today and I made two trips and got under 300 Wh/Mi each round trip. I have regen set to high and rarely touch the brake pedal going more than 5 mph. The few times I've had to make a quick stop and not able to maximize regen, I see it in my Wh/Mi when I get home.

Electric motors are staggeringly more efficient than ICE. With an ICE, you can develop all sorts of bad habits and you usually don't see a huge drop in efficiency because your efficiency was so poor to start with. But with electric motors you can get 70-80% efficiency in the real world and occasionally get to 90% in ideal conditions (tail wind, or driving around 50 kph). Anything that lowers efficiency is going to really trash your range.

The heater in an ICE uses waste heat from the engine, so if anything, it might help a bit to run the heater. However there is not enough waste heat with an EV, so you need to burn energy to heat the car. Tesla uses a resistive heater which gives you instant heat, but really uses up battery energy.

With the phone app you can heat up the car before driving while it's still plugged in and drive off with the car warm and the heat off. In the depths of winter I put it on high and can usually get 10-20 miles down the road on a normal winter day (our winters are similar to southern England) before it starts getting chilly in the car. As the weather gets warmer I don't bother to preheat.

Air conditioning is much more efficient than heating. I see the best Wh/Mi in spring and summer when temps are around 15-20C, but even in the summer when temps are around 35C I can still get around 300 Wh/Mi fairly consistently. In mild temps I get around 285 Wh/Mi.

My concern is mostly the battery, rather than the high usage. Typical use is I think calculated at 295W/mi, so 215 miles to 100% only give 63kW maximum.


Regarding my higher usage:

1) I try to avoid using the brake pedal but find the regen only kicks in about 70% of the way to work. Yes it's set to high.

2) I carry just myself, briefcase, coat and charging cable!

3) Its 5 - 10c here currently, so yes I have the heater on set to 21c most of the time, plus the heated seat for the first few mins only.

4) I drive the S a lot slower than all my previous cars, the quiet ride kinda soothes you into taking it easy.


As I said above, my primary concern is the battery capacity. Having now read an earlier very long thread about Tesla restricting charging capacity when someone has changed via rapid DC 'a lot', and having no info on the previous owner’s 47,000 mile usage/charging, I have no idea if this is already restricted due to excessive DC charging or just down to higher than average degradation, meaning it drop even further if I then use it at the SuperChargers a fair bit on long drives..?


Thanks for info on heating though, I had assumed it would be using reverse aircon (heat pump) to heat, not resistive. I suspect the W/mi figure will drop significantly when I drive a decent long drive and the temp is up over 15c, hopefully!


Andy

 

[wdolson]

My concern is mostly the battery, rather than the high usage. Typical use is I think calculated at 295W/mi, so 215 miles to 100% only give 63kW maximum.


Regarding my higher usage:

1) I try to avoid using the brake pedal but find the regen only kicks in about 70% of the way to work. Yes it's set to high.

2) I carry just myself, briefcase, coat and charging cable!

3) Its 5 - 10c here currently, so yes I have the heater on set to 21c most of the time, plus the heated seat for the first few mins only.

4) I drive the S a lot slower than all my previous cars, the quiet ride kinda soothes you into taking it easy.


As I said above, my primary concern is the battery capacity. Having now read an earlier very long thread about Tesla restricting charging capacity when someone has changed via rapid DC 'a lot', and having no info on the previous owner’s 47,000 mile usage/charging, I have no idea if this is already restricted due to excessive DC charging or just down to higher than average degradation, meaning it drop even further if I then use it at the SuperChargers a fair bit on long drives..?


Thanks for info on heating though, I had assumed it would be using reverse aircon (heat pump) to heat, not resistive. I suspect the W/mi figure will drop significantly when I drive a decent long drive and the temp is up over 15c, hopefully!


Andy

There is a thread about why Tesla doesn't use a heat pump, but for defrosting, you need to run both the heat and air conditioning, which is probably the primary reason they don't use a heat pump, though until recently heat pumps tended to be large and heavy compared to air conditioners too.

I may have missed something, but the only thing I saw on limits put on for cars that were DC charged too much were for the 2nd generation cells (the ones that went into the 90 KWh battery packs) and the limit was on the DC charge rate only. The AC charge rate and the overall capacity were not limited by Tesla. Some cars have had more degradation with age than others, but the car reports this.

Because cold batteries can't charge as fast as warm ones, regen is limited when the battery is cold. In mid-winter I've driven 20 miles without the regen limit going away. Try warming up the interior with the phone app while the car is still plugged in before setting out and then leave the HVAC system off for the first part of your trip. You should see the Wh/Mi go down a bit.

 

[aerodyne]

Had my S70D a month now, bought a used (June 2016 car) with 48,000miles on it. With the unlimited mileage 8 year warranty, I figured a slightly younger higher mileage car would be better value than an older low mileage one. From figures published elsewhere, I expected to see maybe 5% loss in capacity and then it to drift very slowly lower. I've only supercharged it twice (the first day as we didn't have a charger at home or work and had to drive Wales!) but since it’s charged AC at 30A at both home and the office as needed, typically to about 80 - 90%. This weekend i tried charging it to 100% to see what max range I could get in anticipation of a 1,200 mile drive to Italy in the summer and was suprised to see only 215m at 100%. That's the equivalent of just 191 at 90%..

Per this link







To me, this sounds worryingly low for a two and a half year old car? Clearly, I have no idea how well the previous owner looked after the battery, and now I'm thinking I should have asked the selling dealer what the 90/100% charge range showed!


Is this a typical/reasonable figure for the age/mileage of a S70D? The rest of the car in in perfect condition, so appear to have been well looked after.


What's worse is that I can't get anywhere near 300W/mi, typically it's 370 to 450 in everyday driving. Even on the motorway at 70mph, it only comes down to about 350.


This means I can only get about two thirds or 75% of the stated 'range'. Allowing for not running out completely, it means I can only travel about 140 miles at the absolute max before charging, and that’s assuming that range fits in with the distance to the next supercharger on a long trip..




Concerned.

Had my S70D a month now, bought a used (June 2016 car) with 48,000miles on it. With the unlimited mileage 8 year warranty, I figured a slightly younger higher mileage car would be better value than an older low mileage one. From figures published elsewhere, I expected to see maybe 5% loss in capacity and then it to drift very slowly lower. I've only supercharged it twice (the first day as we didn't have a charger at home or work and had to drive Wales!) but since it’s charged AC at 30A at both home and the office as needed, typically to about 80 - 90%. This weekend i tried charging it to 100% to see what max range I could get in anticipation of a 1,200 mile drive to Italy in the summer and was suprised to see only 215m at 100%. That's the equivalent of just 191 at 90%..


To me, this sounds worryingly low for a two and a half year old car? Clearly, I have no idea how well the previous owner looked after the battery, and now I'm thinking I should have asked the selling dealer what the 90/100% charge range showed!


Is this a typical/reasonable figure for the age/mileage of a S70D? The rest of the car in in perfect condition, so appear to have been well looked after.


What's worse is that I can't get anywhere near 300W/mi, typically it's 370 to 450 in everyday driving. Even on the motorway at 70mph, it only comes down to about 350.


This means I can only get about two thirds or 75% of the stated 'range'. Allowing for not running out completely, it means I can only travel about 140 miles at the absolute max before charging, and that’s assuming that range fits in with the distance to the next supercharger on a long trip..


Concerned.

Search this forum for the answers on you battery. From memory, you actual capacity is 67.5 Kw, real range is 229, and ideal range at 70 mph is 221. Try The Teslafi App - free two week download. It will show you actual projected range variation as temps and charging habits change.

 

[unihappytime]

Sounds almost exactly like mine, from a capacity point of view, after 50K miles. Is yours a 70D too?

Unfortunately my 40 - 50 mile daily round trip is all cross country, so no real freeway driving.

Yes, mine is a Feb 2016 70D, it was manufactured I think around Dec 2015

 

[Brass Guy]

3) Its 5 - 10c here currently, so yes I have the heater on set to 21c most of the time, plus the heated seat for the first few mins only.

You are mistaken if you think you're saving any measurable energy by turning off the seat heater. Use it to keep warm.
The cabin heat uses substantial energy, as well as the battery heater (which uses a lot if your regen is limited below 30kw and range mode is off). As @wdolson pointed out, use the phone app, with the car still plugged in, at least 15 (preferably 20+) minutes before heading out.

 

[dgpcolorado]

My 2014 S60, with 67k miles, is down to 159 rated miles at 90%, which is about 15% degradation. Still dropping fairly steadily and longer trip legs are becoming more difficult (most of my miles are from road trips). Those who have single digit percent degradation should be happy with your good fortune.

 

[SilverSp33d3r]

My 2014 S60, with 67k miles, is down to 159 rated miles at 90%, which is about 15% degradation. Still dropping fairly steadily and longer trip legs are becoming more difficult (most of my miles are from road trips). Those who have single digit percent degradation should be happy with your good fortune.

Did you happen to see a noticeable drop when v9 was installed? My car regularly charged to ~180 rm at 90% with v8 installed. As soon as v9 installed it’s been dropping quick. 2014 s60 76,000 miles and 90% is roughly 165-168. Most of the last 20k miles have been on 24-40 amp ac charging only.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Did you happen to see a noticeable drop when v9 was installed? My car regularly charged to ~180 rm at 90% with v8 installed. As soon as v9 installed it’s been dropping quick. 2014 s60 76,000 miles and 90% is roughly 165-168. Most of the last 20k miles have been on 24-40 amp ac charging only.

I don't check it regularly so I don't know if my battery level changed after V9. It is an interesting possibility. My car usually charges to 88-89% on the 90% detent; I have been charging over 90% the last few days on a road trip, so I was able to get a 90% reading. I usually display percentage and don't see the RM number. I do seem to see a lower number in winter than summer, so I might recover a few miles when the weather warms up.

I presume that my battery is down more than a typical S60 for the age and mileage because I have Supercharged more than 270 times on road trips (I have no local Supercharger Stations). However, S60s work the battery a lot harder than the bigger battery models; there are S60s with much lower rated range than my car. I'm hoping to put in a new battery when the range gets to be a problem. A year ago I was told by service that a replacement battery would be $16k and that it would be a software limited 75. Don't know how true any of that is. I'd pay for a new/rebuilt 75 battery for my car -- I like everything else about it.

 

[wdolson]

I saw no drop with v9.

 

[aerodyne]

same here, less than 1/2 mile, I think due to colder temps

 

[wdolson]

same here, less than 1/2 mile, I think due to colder temps

My range drops about 1-2 miles in the winter and goes back up as the weather warms.

 

[morrisdl]

Lots of good data points in this thread. Wish there was a way to consolidate the info into a graph of range vs odometer.

P85 w/80k miles
90% range: 224 miles
last 100% charge: 250 miles

Here is my pretty flat range history over the past year and 32,000 miles:

 

[glhs272]

My 2014 S60, with 67k miles, is down to 159 rated miles at 90%, which is about 15% degradation. Still dropping fairly steadily and longer trip legs are becoming more difficult (most of my miles are from road trips). Those who have single digit percent degradation should be happy with your good fortune.

That's a bit disappointing. Currently I have 142K on my 2013 S60 and I am getting around 172-174 rated miles at 90%. However, I don't know if that's just BS being displayed by the car. I intend to a battery capacity check by charging full and running it down to near 0%, get the kwh extracted data, then compare those results to prior tests.

My concern with my pack is it's not really charging to 100% anymore. It will get close but stops short. This tells me that pack is out of balance or it has something to do with the cold. This has been the case almost all winter. I will be trying again later when it warms up.

What frustrates me about Tesla's position about this is that they won't service the existing pack. They only replace packs as a whole. My understanding about many of the pack failures is that essentially the pack's capacity is limited by it's weakest group of parallel cells (brick). So if a brick develops a cell with a bit of internal resistance that causes the brick as a whole to loose capacity or start to have accelerated self discharge, it requires pack's BMS system to activate bleed off resistors to brick the weak brick's voltage back in line. <-More explanation required to understand what I am getting at here, but in short if we could just replace a weak battery module in the pack, the rest of the pack is likely still more than serviceable. It appears Tesla is not interested in servicing packs. They require whole pack replacement. I suspect that many of the battery failures or weak packs could be fixed by simply replacing a module.

dgpcolorado, does your pack still charge fully to 100% or does it stop short?

 

[dgpcolorado]

...dgpcolorado, does your pack still charge fully to 100% or does it stop short?

Interesting that you should ask that. In the past I have always topped out at 99% and my 90% setting always gave 89%, then, recently, 88%. Didn't pay it much attention — it's just the way it is. Then, today, I managed to Supercharge to 100%. It only read that figure for a few seconds but there it was, for the first time ever (I unplugged immediately and headed on my way). The rated miles number was 176. [I needed the range to make it to the next Supercharger Station in the mountains, much of it on snow, slush and ice. What surprised me was that I was still charging at 6 kW at the end, rather than about 2 kW that I've seen at 98% on previous trips — firmware change?]

I don't think a reading of less than 100% is significant and others here have reported it. Measuring those tiny voltage differences figures to be somewhat variable.

Interesting that you have much higher range on your battery, despite it being older and with double the miles. I'm doing much worse than you are, perhaps because I have Supercharged my car more than 272 times, all of it on road trips since I have no local Supercharger Stations.