Wheel & Tire Size Consideration

[Topher]

• Reduced range

The quote I saw in another thread was 10-15% of range. NO WAY would I consider fancy expensive wheels on the car with range reduced to 182-193 instead of 215. Paying $1,000 more for the 'privilege', and another 5.3 to 6.6 cents per mile? Yikes. That's about twice what I will be paying for FUEL.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Skotty]

For those curious about prices for similar tires from existing models, from Tire Rack:

Prices are for tires only.

Model S:
P90D 265/35/21: 350-395 each
90D 245/45/19: 150-267 each
90D 245/35/21: Most in 300 range each

Model X:
75D 265/75/45/20: 250-340 each
75D 265/285/35/22: Most in 200 range each

You sure you didn't accidentally reverse the X numbers there? I've never seen a lower profile tire cheaper than a higher profile tire.

The wheel size thing is definitely a fashion trend. Back in the 80's (actually 90's, but I was driving 80's cars as the time), my Mustangs had 14 and 15 inch wheels. In 1999, my Mustang Cobra had 17 inch wheels. Anything 20 or above was the territory of hard core extremists looking for attention. (there was also briefly an extremist trend of using small wheels and tires with spacers to extend them out from the car further)

One thing a bigger wheel buys you is more room for bigger disks and brakes, but really, once you get up to 19 inch, I don't think there is any benefit to even larger disks and brakes that would require above that.

I would like to see a base tire/wheel size on the 3 that keeps the replacement costs down. Maybe 235 width, maybe 45 or 50 series, maybe 17 to 18 inch. 235 should be enough rubber -- my 2011 Mustang GT with a 412 HP V8 had factory 235s front and back.

 

[vjason]

I saw that too and double checked, it is correct (at least based on what the website says). FWIW I agree with you it did seem odd. The site does pull up some different tires for an X. I didn't dig too deeply as I was just curious to see what the numbers looked like myself.

You sure you didn't accidentally reverse the X numbers there? I've never seen a lower profile tire cheaper than a higher profile tire.

The wheel size thing is definitely a fashion trend. Back in the 80's (actually 90's, but I was driving 80's cars as the time), my Mustangs had 14 and 15 inch wheels. In 1999, my Mustang Cobra had 17 inch wheels. Anything 20 or above was the territory of hard core extremists looking for attention. (there was also briefly an extremist trend of using small wheels and tires with spacers to extend them out from the car further)

One thing a bigger wheel buys you is more room for bigger disks and brakes, but really, once you get up to 19 inch, I don't think there is any benefit to even larger disks and brakes that would require above that.

I would like to see a base tire/wheel size on the 3 that keeps the replacement costs down. Maybe 235 width, maybe 45 or 50 series, maybe 17 to 18 inch.

 

[McRat]

...
I would like to see a base tire/wheel size on the 3 that keeps the replacement costs down. Maybe 235 width, maybe 45 or 50 series, maybe 17 to 18 inch. 235 should be enough rubber -- my 2011 Mustang GT with a 412 HP V8 had factory 235s front and back.

If 17" wheels will cut costs and improve acceleration and range, I think it should be done. People are free to put glamour wheels on later.

 

[eisbock]

One thing a bigger wheel buys you is more room for bigger disks and brakes, but really, once you get up to 19 inch, I don't think there is any benefit to even larger disks and brakes that would require above that.

And really, this is an EV with regenerative braking, so there's even less need for brakes!

 

[Mark C]

I'm one who doesn't see any benefit at all going to so large a rim size. Most cars of a similar size use tires that are within a couple inches in overall diameter. So as an example, if you went from a 15" to a 20" rim using a 25" diameter tire, the sidewall height would go from 5" on the 15" rim to 2.5" on a 20" rim. All else being equal, I believe the larger sidewall flexes a bit more for a softer ride while the shorter sidewall offers a more aggresive appearance with an increase in cornering ability and a stiffer ride. So, for the pleasure of the larger diameter rim, you get increased likelihood of curb rash, of destroying the rim in a pothole. Those larger tires will be a good deal more expensive for several years and likely of a more aggresive design with reduced tread life.

Y'all go ahead and get the larger diameter wheel and tire package if you want one, I won't. Of course, being in AL instead of CA means I don't have the "need" for the large diameter rims.

 

[Zaphod]

The quote I saw in another thread was 10-15% of range. NO WAY would I consider fancy expensive wheels on the car with range reduced to 182-193 instead of 215. Paying $1,000 more for the 'privilege', and another 5.3 to 6.6 cents per mile? Yikes. That's about twice what I will be paying for FUEL.

Thank you kindly.

Those percentages are what Tesla is stating for the 22" wheels on the X. I am fairly confident those are inflated for them to CYA if/when people start complaining and asking why my range is taking a hit.

If you research on the S for people with the 21" wheels/tires, the range decrease is much smaller, in the singe digit percent around 5% or less. But of course there are lots of factors including driving habits that can impact the results. The larger wheels would impact more start and stop driving versus continuous highway driving.

Clearly you don't want the larger wheels. Plenty of people do, myself included. Yes, there are pros/cons of each and fortunately we can all make the decision for ourselves what we decide to choose.

 

[Topher]

Clearly you don't want the larger wheels.

If the range and cost numbers worked the other way, I would be all over larger wheels.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Craig9080]

Just to point it out, with keeping the overall OD the same, a smaller wheel and taller tire will almost always weight less. Reducing unsprung weight is the Holy Grail in weight shedding.

 

[bmenius]

Fashion never changes?

Perhaps. Glad I hung on to my corduroy bell bottoms.

Ford Model A wheels were 21" diameter over 100 years ago. So it wasn't exactly the Dodge truck (trucks run larger dia tires) that started the Big Wheel look.

In 2014, they wanted to make the fastest Z/28 track car possible that could still be licensed for the street. So they put massive carbon ceramic brakes on it, then reduced the wheels to 19" from 20".

They lost 44lb on the wheels and tires by doing that.

You're the one speaking in absolutes, not me. Modern car designs have seen wheel arches get much larger. These days, an 18” wheel option may have just as much tire as a 15” wheel option had a decade ago. A Model A is as relevant to my previous point as a Caterpillar earth mover, so I have to wonder if you even got the point.

I saw a great example today- a 2016 Honda Accord with optional 19” wheels. The tire? A 235/40R19. Have a look: http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/mid...2c4/202446329/lead10-2016-honda-accord-fd.jpg

That's not a particularly short sidewall. It's certainly a first for the Accord, and there are plenty of other cars that have progressed similarly. The 300/ Charger is another example. My last R/T rental had a standard 20" wheel- again, with a fairly meaty tire.

I can get 19” tires today for about what I gave for similar 17” tires a decade ago, so the “tires are more expensive” gripe is irrelevant to me.

The points about unsprung weight are 100% valid. It's a trade-off I accepted long ago.

 

[evfan_vt]

If you look at the MT video where they are in the Giga-factory M3 showroom at about 9 minutes in, it mentions the front tires are
235/35's and the back are 275/30's. All wheels are 20".
Exclusive: Tesla Model 3 Photo Shoot at the Gigafactory

IMHO, that is an aggressive tire, but probably necessary given the amount of torque the car can deliver. Maybe smaller rims is another option for those that really don't need to take hairpin turns at 60mph?
Even with a smaller rim than 20", I suspect that it will be hard to find the right tire with a longer wear speed rating of say "H". Tires that have a small side wall are naturally going to be stickier and wear faster. My guess is that with the 20" rims you'd be lucky to find a tire that would last 40k even after never pushing the throttle.
Unless you are trading in a sports car for a model 3, I think the money spent on tires is going to be going up for all of us.

 

[wallet.dat]

There's absolutely no way the Mod3 will come with 17's. It's not 2001 anymore. Even some Civics come with 18" standard.

 

[bmenius]

There's absolutely no way the Mod3 will come with 17's. It's not 2001 anymore. Even some Civics come with 18" standard.

I get the feeling you're right. Musk is only going to accept a certain degree of “government fleet spec” look for his cars.

 

[McRat]

I get the feeling you're right. Musk is only going to accept a certain degree of “government fleet spec” look for his cars.

I'm pretty sure the following are all government fleet cars.

17"/17"

17"/18"

18"/18"

 

[Jayc]

As Mark C says, there really isn't much benefit in going for larger rims. Yes there are those who think larger rims look current and trendy but then it is all about personal preferences and priorities. For me, the advantage of extra comfort, reduced road noise, cheaper tyres and additional miles from a charge outweighs any benefit to be had with larger rims. Its an easy decision for me, I just hope they give the option to pick smaller rims with upper grades

 

[McRat]

The one good thing about 20-22" rims is they nearly all have curb rash or dents on them if they were actually driven daily.

When you go to buy used, ask them if there was suspension or chassis damage, how bad the tire sidewalls are hurt, and how much would they sell the car for with undamaged rims and tires.

Yes, I know the odds of suspension and chassis damage are slim. And curb rash is normally cosmetic. But they know how much the rims cost, and subconsciously they were worried they hurt the suspension, and will often deal with you and drop the price quite a bit. You might mention you think the shocks need replacement since the ride is harse. Find a old road to do the test drive on.

Then buy yourself a nice set of 18's with good grippy tires and a soft ride and resell the "dubs" and turn a profit.

Dubs are great for car shows or cruising on the weekends. But in the real world with nails, potholes, curbs, studder bumps, concrete slab chop, wheel thieves, tire chains, track tires, snow tires, etc, removing tires on cars to replace them with rubber bands instead is not a sign of intelligence anymore than a tongue piercing is.

 

[T34ME]

I am not a mechanical engineer, but I wonder about potential M3 wheel and tire options. Given a 20” wheel will travel farther than an 18” wheel per revolution of the axle, will the extra distance traveled be offset by the extra power required to turn a larger wheel and tire? Will larger wheels provide more range compared to smaller wheels and tires? I will be happy with either wheel size. Just wondering?

NOPE! The guys over at Prius Chat (of which I am a member) have this all dialed in. The Prius OEM wheel size is 16". Here are the problems with larger wheel sizes:
- greater cost for the wheel
- increased tire wear for low profile tires (low profile tires are necessary to keep tire o.d. closer to OEM size which will effect speedometer and other mechanical settings)
- increased wheel/tire weight
- reduced mileage
- rougher ride
- more air turbulence at wheel which reduces mileage because of spoke design
- less tire range before replacement

Having said that, some Prius owners do put 19" wheels on their cars because they want to look "cool" and the cost is worth it. Your car, your money, your decision. BTW they have determined that 16" Michelin Energy Saver tires have the lowest rolling resistance and increase mileage somewhat (maybe an additional mile or two per gallon) and appear to be the most common replacement tire choice.

The quote I saw in another thread was 10-15% of range.

That may have been I. Again over at PriusChat, some have found 10 to 15% cost in range to be a worst case scenario, depending on the various wheel/tire combination. For others, it is less than that.

Just to point it out, with keeping the overall OD the same, a smaller wheel and taller tire will almost always weight less. Reducing unsprung weight is the Holy Grail in weight shedding.

True all of that. There is at least one wheel in a 16" size that weighs less than the 16" Prius OEM wheel (which are very light) but you lose the advantage with the other wheel because of increased turbulence due to spoke design.

There's absolutely no way the Mod3 will come with 17's. It's not 2001 anymore. Even some Civics come with 18" standard.

I am considering going to 16" on my T3 with larger tires! You mean it's not 1901? Naw, I'm just going to leave the T3 wheel/tire OEM combo as is to get the factory advertised range......and those are some pretty "cool" looking wheels on the T3 I have seen so far!

 

[FlatSix911]

Correct ... Tesla estimates a 10% - 15% loss of range with the 22" wheels on the Model X.

The quote I saw in another thread was 10-15% of range. NO WAY would I consider fancy expensive wheels on the car with range reduced to 182-193 instead of 215. Paying $1,000 more for the 'privilege', and another 5.3 to 6.6 cents per mile? Yikes. That's about twice what I will be paying for FUEL.
Thank you kindly.

 

[wallet.dat]

I am considering going to 16" on my T3 with larger tires! You mean it's not 1901? Naw, I'm just going to leave the T3 wheel/tire OEM combo as is to get the factory advertised range......and those are some pretty "cool" looking wheels on the T3 I have seen so far!

Do you plan on swapping out the brake calipers from some other car so a 16" wheel will fit?

 

[T34ME]

I'm just going to leave the T3 wheel/tire OEM combo "as is" to get the factory advertised range......

Do you plan on swapping out the brake calipers from some other car so a 16" wheel will fit?

As I said in my post, I'm just going to be happy with whatever Tesla OEM wheel/tire combination is..