Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

When is structural battery pack & 4680 cells coming & Why are you not waiting until then?

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Its kind of insane that its been 6 weeks since 4680 were sold to people and yet no blog or paper has a picture of so much as the charging curve to see if it charges at twice the speed as expected.

But yes, I am considering waiting on 4680 even if its lower power.

Sandy Munro stated that the 4680 will last a gazillion years, and he would know.

Plus, in the video showing off the 4680, tesla played a lyric in the background “i will go a million miles” Seems pretty reasonable to assume that 4680 batteries will last many many decades and for a million miles due to improved heat discharge and the far shorter travel distance for electrons due to the tabless design.

Can anyone tell me a reason why I am wrong to think this?
A dose of caution regarding your assumptions.
Tesla and the internet clickbait mongers do hype very well.
But delivery is always on Elon time. Witness FSD, CT, Semi, RoboTaxi, etc..

While we can all admire and support noble goals, sometimes a dose of caution is required.
Given that the MY AWD doesn't weigh much less, but has less range, despite having both front and rear megacastings, and 4680 batteries, you have to wonder.
Does the product match the 2 years of hype? Yes, for many, the reduced range isn't really an issue. But emotions run deep on that subject.

The primary benefit I see is that you can get a AWD much sooner than a LR. But not much sooner than a P, and at nearly the same price.
 
charges at twice the speed as expected.

Sandy Munro stated that the 4680 will last a gazillion years, and he would know.
Seems pretty reasonable to assume that 4680 batteries will last many many decades and for a million miles due to improved heat discharge and the far shorter travel distance for electrons due to the tabless design.
Not sure if this is a troll?

If 4680 charges twice as fast and has no battery degradation, that is indeed a huge deal, and makes up for less range than MYLR. But this all seems unlikely since it uses same chemistry?
 
Not sure if this is a troll?

If 4680 charges twice as fast and has no battery degradation, that is indeed a huge deal, and makes up for less range than MYLR. But this all seems unlikely since it uses same chemistry?
Battery Day hype continues, now by the naive.
Parroting internet blogs doesn't mean facts are available - which they are decidedly NOT.
We continue to wait for real world reports from 4680 cars in the wild.
 
How much money are you people making that so many of you get a new $80,000 car every six years!!

I cant believe so many people would spend $80,000 on a car without wanting to keep using it for decades

Well see these Teslas are holding their value so insanely well right now that if you get your reservation in ahead of time, you can literally sell your 2 year old $80k car for roughly what you paid for it, and get a fresh one.

That situation may not last, but it sure makes things nice right now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MorrisonHiker
Not sure if this is a troll?

If 4680 charges twice as fast and has no battery degradation, that is indeed a huge deal, and makes up for less range than MYLR. But this all seems unlikely since it uses same chemistry?

We have no real world evidence for faster charging or longer-life in the 4680 packs - just 2 year old powerpoints from when they were developing it.

I hope they eventually deliver on the aspirations for the 4680, but clearly the weight savings did not happen, and so we are cautious about the other goals. I figure someone in Texas will shortly have one in their hands, and can at least try the charging rate, and I bet you it's not much different the MYLR. Yet.
 
How much money are you people making that so many of you get a new $80,000 car every six years!!

I cant believe so many people would spend $80,000 on a car without wanting to keep using it for decades

A few drivetrains on ICE vehicles will go tons of miles. The 5 liter Benz v-8 is often good for 400,000 or more. The Toyota Lexus v-8 from the ‘80s ditto. Some normally aspirated Honda 4’s will do it also. But...
No one alive wants any car with 300,000 miles on it even if drivetrain working well. Most can barely tolerate a car with more than 100,000. They wear out generally. EVERYTHING. Not just batteries. Seat springs, carpets, upholstery, door handles, steering gets loose, suspensions fall apart, cars rust...
There are plenty of cars now that can go 1 million miles with two to 10 engine replacements but there are good reasons unrelated to cost people dont do that.
A couple have done it on original engines. these are extraordinary outliers though, and not something people want to use for transport.
This one million mile battery notion ...is perhaps useful not for being able to run that long in the same car but say, for reuse. Or for simply not losing much range during the normal lifespan of a vehicle.
Talk of anything else is more of the mythical hokum that seems to spring up around Elon, even when he’s not pushing it. EV drivetrain doesn’t magically end the wear and tear to the rest of an aging vehicle.
 
LFPs are not the only batteries that can last a 100 years. Tesla just this morning published a paper on a nickel based low power battery that can last a 100 years and a million miles…


Is there any chance that this chemistry is whats being used in 4680s. It would explain why tesla is pushing 4680 production so hard and planning to move everything over to 4680s in the coming years.
 
  • Funny
  • Like
Reactions: KJD and finman100
LFPs are not the only batteries that can last a 100 years. Tesla just this morning published a paper on a nickel based low power battery that can last a 100 years and a million miles…


Is there any chance that this chemistry is whats being used in 4680s. It would explain why tesla is pushing 4680 production so hard and planning to move everything over to 4680s in the coming years.

No. As already stated, the only LFP batteries at Tesla are pouch-cell designs used in standard-range packs in China.

4680 is a cylindrical cell using NMC chemistry.

Also: No one needs a 100 year / million-mile battery pack - the car itself will wear out far earlier than that. It will be nice to repurpose the pack though.
 
…Most can barely tolerate a car with more than 100,000…
It required daytime running lights and driver door clip replacement, but at 5 years and 100,000 miles my car looks and feels brand new, other than some minor pitting of the windshield that I think I could fill and polish in an hour.
 
How much money are you people making that so many of you get a new $80,000 car every six years!!

I cant believe so many people would spend $80,000 on a car without wanting to keep using it for decades
I've been able to sell my vehicles for only a few thousand less than what I paid for them. If I sell my Tesla Model 3 now, I'll make a big profit. Bought it for $41K, used. Should be able to sell it for $50K. My Model Y on order has the original order price of $49K for long range.
 
Until we get independent third party tests of the battery, I wouldn't put too much stock in the claims. Things like cost savings will just mean more money for Tesla.

Has there been a detailed technical paper on why the battery will be better performing? For example, it's not immediately clear how a bigger battery would be easier to cool. Bigger cells means less surface area and a larger distance to coolant lines
 
Until we get independent third party tests of the battery, I wouldn't put too much stock in the claims. Things like cost savings will just mean more money for Tesla.

Has there been a detailed technical paper on why the battery will be better performing? For example, it's not immediately clear how a bigger battery would be easier to cool. Bigger cells means less surface area and a larger distance to coolant lines

You are correct that bigger cylinders would be physically harder to heat/cool.

The design advantage for the 4680 is in the continuous-tab (they call it tab-less, but that doesn't really describe it very well). There's folded tabs clear along the entire length of the jelly-roll in the cell, so electrons go straight to the cathode/anode instead of having to traverse much longer distance from an end-tab along the edge of the roll. This drops resistive losses, and most importantly heating from those losses. So you get a more efficient cell that doesn't heat up as much.

That in turn allows you to cool a much larger format cell than would otherwise be practical. Hence the beefy 4680 which is roughly 5x the size of the 2170. Fewer cells means less manufacturing, and better still less complexity wiring up all those cells into a reliable pack.

Finally, with that larger format cell, it's now in position to carry interesting structural loads on the walls of the cell (little thin cylinders suck at helping on lateral loading). So you can make a structural pack which needs far less framing, reducing overall weight.

That's the design promise of the 4680 and why at similar-pack capacity it's -supposed- to charge faster and be lighter. Alas, the weight savings has not yet happened. Even at what's basically a 80% cell-population for the MYAWD 279-mile pack (swapping out cells on the sides for foam padding) the car weighs about the same as a MYLR. So we're cautious about the other claims like faster charging.
 
My best guess on the reason for no MPGe improvement is extra structure to support the structural battery pack. If true, that miss is unfortunate but not critical. What is critical is Tesla's ability to make the 4680 at low cost.

Labor/cost savings from the large casting is good, but Musk would never admit to low yields in the current process.

We just don't know the reality of all these new features today. Tesla's terrific car margins will mask areas that are not yet yielding design goals. Just like healthy business lines mask Tesla's crappy SolarCity business. (Not equating Tesla's good attempts at improving EV manufacturing with the fundamentally flawed solar installation business).