Oh, I get that completely, and of course in McCall I am not using a Supercharger at all. I agree that we don't need the same number but there still needs to be a much bigger network. You know, so you can go to Stanley and back in the winter, for instance.
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When is structural battery pack & 4680 cells coming & Why are you not waiting until then?
- Thread starter Guvnah
- Start date
EVer Hopeful
Active Member
Considering a lot of gas stations are closing because of laws pertaining to underground tanks, you'd think that'd be the perfect catalyst to make them replace gas pumps with EV charging stations
In addition, the regulatory issues and costs of buying and burying large storage tanks probably negates any cost advantage of a pump.
That presumes there's already electric utility service to the facility.....who knows....
That doesn’t negate there genera truth of the statement. look around at the mileage on most cars in service now. And some makes are mainly done at 110.000.
I doubt it. All of the inspections and maintenance to make sure that the underground tanks don't leak isn't cheap.
I should have said up front costs. I think that over time it you are correct that an EV is cheaper, but I have read that it takes longer to recover the initial cost, which I have read can be in the neighborhood of $100000. A new gas station pump costs $16-20K. It is just hard to get gas station owners to consider that sort of outlay to convert. I'm no expert. I do think more people would do it if it were economical and that's why we need to incentivize it.
The regulations around underground tanks changed about 35 years ago, with a decade of notice.
The effect was to put most 'service stations' out of business. Those were service shops with two or four pumps out front. They relied on both aspects to make money, with entry-level mechanics pumping gas when busy and pump guys doing easily-interrupted jobs such as oil changes. They didn't have the gas sales to justify replacing the tanks. They often didn't even have the business prospects as repair shops to justify digging up the old tanks, as that risked huge liability if any leaks were found.
The new business model was gas stations combined with convenience stores. Multiple pumps mitigated the cost of the storage tanks, and the convenience store made high profits from the many low-profit gas sales.
I expect EV charging stations to find their own business model, likely around shopping that take a bit longer than a can of New Coke and pack of cigarettes. Perhaps a revival of the soda fountain, a 10 minute peep show, or a combo game store / art gallery.
Well it looks to be that the 4680 supercharging speeds aren't really mind-blowingly throwing the 2170s out of the water. Tesla Model Y with new 4680 cells shows impressive potential for faster charging It appears it doesn't even hit a 250kw peak
This assumes that everyone has a garage/driveway to charge overnight, or can charge at work. Truly widespread adoption of EVs, in my opinion, goes through either longer ranges (it makes a world of difference to only have to go supercharge once every couple of weeks instead of once a week, if you don’t have access to L2 charger), or chargers truly at every mall/workplace, or both. To me longer range isn’t an issue for road trips, as we know that the supercharger network is solid and will keep getting built out. The issue is for the person who lives in a condo without a charger in their building nor at work, those are a lot of the people who are scared of getting an EV because of range.
Supercharging a large pack is not a good long term solution. This is kind of drifting away from the topic of 4680 cells, but there are lots of threads on the subject of Condo living with an EV. This may seem like a difficult problem to solve, but it's not impossible by any means. A couple of examples of how others have solved this problem.
Condo Charging - Minimal cost installation and some questions
All, Some relevant background information: I live in a condo building. I am also on the HOA Board. Someone who parks their car very close to me in an underground garage is buying an EV of some variety, not sure which one yet. They are a renter who will be moving out at some point in the next...
teslamotorsclub.com
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/successful-completion-of-condo-charging-installation-–-now-i-can-charge-at-home.76428/
To me, range is very much an issue and the charging network isn't remotely close to being built out. I bet I could easily find literally a million places in the lower 48 which are too far from a Supercharger to allow you to go to visit Grandma on Sunday and make it home Sunday Night to go to work on Monday. Add Canada and Alaska and triple that number. People do want to be able to do that. More than 100 miles in the winter or in the mountains and that's out. It's not just about being able to make it from San Francisco to New York and back. There are a lot of places between interstate highways. If you want widespread adoption of EVs, you need to build way more Level 3 chargers or increase range. (Or both). Or you'll max out at 10% of the vehicles on the road.
EV's and associated infrastructure are not ready for the rural environment.
They're more a temperate climate / metropolitan transportation solution.
It'll take a while yet......but will get there, eventually.
Temper the expectations.
My hope is for wider adoption sooner rather than later. But I think that range as well as charger infrastructure are a long way from adequate to allow for widespread adoption.
I agree with you that EVs and infrastructure are very limited at the moment.
There's a clock ticking, so I am impatient.
Manufacturers are piling on the EV bandwagon but I don’t see a huge effort to expand the charging networks. That’s the bottleneck at this point and will be for the next 5-10 years or so at least at this pace. And big oil will fight it all the way though not overtly. Reminds me of cigarette companies paying for anti-smoking ads - can’t say their heart was really in it. 
Exelion
Member
You might not see it, you might not notice it, and it might not be happening where you live, but it IS happening. Very fast. In just last year, 4,200 DC fast charge plug handles got installed. This includes Supercharger and other mfgr. DCFC’s. Average-> about 11 per DAY. And individual L2 chargers? 13,883, or about 40 per DAY. Gas stations didn’t/don’t grow that fast.
Near where I live, I count at least five new DCFC charging places (one is tesla) that opened last year. For long distance, i know of one that expanded (barstow).
It will probably grow even faster in the years to come.
As far as big oil is concerned, I know at least two that are operating DCFC’s, Shell and BP. Shell bought out greenlots so they’re in the game. I don’t know if the other ones are following suit but it’d be smart for them to do so.
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You live in the largest concentration of EV owners in the country and it's clearly ripe for more chargers - lots of waiting so lots of opportunity. And as far as my big oil comment yes, as I stated this is more about PR than making any money, hence my anti-smoking campaigns from the Tobacco industry comment. Clearly against their interests but makes them look concerned. Much in the same way big oil pushed plastics recycling giving people the feeling they could make a difference and they can keep pumping out their products. Much more to all this than meets the eye - people like simple answers. I know this has gone far astray from the intent of this thread and for that I apologize - whoops!You might not see it, you might not notice it, and it might not be happening where you live, but it IS happening. Very fast. In just last year, 4,200 DC fast charge plug handles got installed. This includes Supercharger and other mfgr. DCFC’s. Average-> about 11 per DAY. And individual L2 chargers? 13,883, or about 40 per DAY. Gas stations didn’t/don’t grow that fast.
Near where I live, I count at least five new DCFC charging places (one is tesla) that opened last year. For long distance, i know of one that expanded (barstow).
It will probably grow even faster in the years to come.
As far as big oil is concerned, I know at least two that are operating DCFC’s, Shell and BP. Shell bought out greenlots so they’re in the game. I don’t know if the other ones are following suit but it’d be smart for them to do so.
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It cost me $4000 by waiting for something that is very close to smoke and mirrors. The theoretical benefits are great but the hype does not seem to be matched even by current production. I have not seen any confirmed weight saving in comparable power capacity. I have not read reliable road test results on improved dynamics. So I took delivery last week of 2170 MYP and despite comment here it was perfect in all respects other than the handling near limit us best described as ragged. Disabled nanny features,creation control and stability and it was unpleasant near the limit but at least predictable body roll and understeer. I like it !
Manufacturers may be piling onto EV's, but mostly as PR, not with deliverable products.Manufacturers are piling on the EV bandwagon but I don’t see a huge effort to expand the charging networks. That’s the bottleneck at this point and will be for the next 5-10 years or so at least at this pace. And big oil will fight it all the way though not overtly. Reminds me of cigarette companies paying for anti-smoking ads - can’t say their heart was really in it.
Product volumes are minimal, wait times increasing due to demand, and suppliers can't keep up.
Ford jumped their F150 Lightning production plan to all of 150,000 units - NEXT YEAR.
Further, infrastructure follows uptake - charging is being installed where EV's are, not with a generic infrastructure plan.
So LA, and the State of CA that takes up 70% of EV sales, will get most charging stations. Yet 75% (est) of those users charge mostly at home.
Only Tesla is building to an infrastructure plan. Only Tesla is building true product volume capability.
Not a Tesla fanboy, but facts are facts. There's a reason conservative UBS put a 'buy' rating on the stock. Tesla can deliver, most others are posers.
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Apparently they have started conservatively with new battery tech and will almost certainly increase the speeds via software later
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