When to report NHTSA issues?

[AnOutsider]

all safety issues and concerns regardless of significance should be reported to the NHSTA, plain and simple.

100% agreed. It's not about Tesla "doing the right thing". These reports need to happen so that a bigger picture can form. Really, I feel like manufacturers should be required to report themselves (maybe they are, I don't know). I'll admit, my first thought isn't to report anything to the NHTSA (I've never had anything I'd consider a safety issue anyway), but I'm not going to shun someone who does.

 

[dsm363]

100% agreed. It's not about Tesla "doing the right thing". These reports need to happen so that a bigger picture can form. Really, I feel like manufacturers should be required to report themselves (maybe they are, I don't know). I'll admit, my first thought isn't to report anything to the NHTSA (I've never had anything I'd consider a safety issue anyway), but I'm not going to shun someone who does.

That's how I see it. It never occurred to me to report anything I've had wrong with my car to the NTHSA but if someone feels the need to that's what it is there for. The encouragement to report things like faulty windshield wipers and such seems a little over the top. Loss of power, sure go ahead if you think it's something that is systematically wrong with the Model S, just not your particular car.

 

[FlasherZ]

That's how I see it. It never occurred to me to report anything I've had wrong with my car to the NTHSA but if someone feels the need to that's what it is there for. The encouragement to report things like faulty windshield wipers and such seems a little over the top. Loss of power, sure go ahead if you think it's something that is systematically wrong with the Model S, just not your particular car.

I'm going to speak up when people are encouraging others to go run to the government, when Tesla seems to be handling these issues just fine without an issue.

I have a slightly different view, mostly because it's people who are wasting my tax dollars having the government play an unproductive parent (because the vendor-customer relationship is indeed working). There are better things we could be spending tax dollars on than asking the government to remind two parties who are already playing nice, to play nice, 6 months later when the bureaucracy finally gets around to it.

If there truly is a safety issue (and not an individual one-off failure), and Tesla refuses to address it, *then* by all means report it, because that's what the organization is there for. It's not there to stand over your inability to work with Tesla. I *do* take an issue if you want to waste my tax dollars. More people should, too.

It's like suggesting that we must report to the CPSC any time a window breaks, because broken glass is a safety problem, regardless of whether a child hit a baseball through it or the window shattered itself. If you think the window was defective in the first place? Contact your contractor and/or window manufacturer. If they refuse to address it? *THEN* call the government in for oversight. Otherwise, you're expecting the government to be your henchmen. Completely inappropriate.

(Now can this topic please go back to sleep? It was happily asleep for 9 months.)

 

[DCWitt]

+1000 Amen FlasherZ

 

[JohnSnowNW]

all safety issues and concerns regardless of significance should be reported to the NHSTA, plain and simple.

Completely disagree.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I believe that Tesla is required to provide copies of all TSBs to the NHTSA as well as to self-report any potentially safety-related defects to them, FWIW.

That's true, but any complaints sent to the manufacturer doesn't show up on the NHTSA site or publicly. That's the main difference. In the case where the manufacturer takes every complaint seriously, there should be no difference between reporting to the manufacturer and NHTSA in terms of getting the issue addressed (in terms of TSBs and self-initiated recalls). However, there are some issues where the manufacturer doesn't acknowledge something as a safety issue and the NHTSA has to step in. Then there's the third case, where like in the GM ignition recall, neither the manufacturer nor NHTSA was able to recognize an issue as a safety defect. It took a lawsuit and the media to force action.

 

[cwerdna]

I'm not one to gratuitously criticize Tesla but my current situation is cause for real concern.
...
This is an unsafe situation. A few times the passenger door has swung wide open as I drove out of a parking space. Last night it was open the entire evening after I thought I had locked the car.

I recontacted service about the problem today and they seemed not to treat it as a serious problem -- couldn't make arrangements to fix it for more than two weeks. Thinking it might invoke more concern, I said that for safety I'd just have to use duct tape on the outside of the door to prevent it from opening. This comment resulted in no response whatsoever.

I think this is a real safety issue and deserves a more urgent response from Tesla Service.

There was also a huge recall by Ford earlier this year for doors popping open. It is a serious issue and Tesla should fix it promptly, but to say it doesn't happen to other automakers is just wrong.

Since the issue of safety has come up in the OP and numerous times in this thread, I would file a safety complaint w/NHTSA via Home | Safercar -- National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), preferably after the issue is resolved, so the fix (or what was done to attempt to fix it) is also known and can be included in the report.

 

[FlasherZ]

Since the issue of safety has come up in the OP and numerous times in this thread, I would file a safety complaint w/NHTSA via Home | Safercar -- National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), preferably after the issue is resolved, so the fix (or what was done to attempt to fix it) is also known and can be included in the report.

Right on cue.

Another post to move to the mommy government thread. Tesla has taken care of his issue, as usual, so no need. Thanks for playing.

(For what it's worth, the car warns you when the door isn't fully latched - the three-tone warning sounds every 3 seconds if the car is in motion and the door is open. It won't pop open in transit, which is where I would have a strong safety concern; if the handle has malfunctioned, the door will unlatch when you a) place the car in park; b) unlock the car by fob or app; or c) close the door affected. Warnings will be presented to you on the screen.)

 

[cwerdna]

Right on cue.

Another post to move to the mommy government thread. Tesla has taken care of his issue, as usual, so no need. Thanks for playing.

Sigh.... so how many other people have run into this and are also getting the treatment the OP initially got?

Wouldn't it be better that EVERYONE who might be affected gets the fix? Think of the greater good when it comes to any clear safety defect.

As usual, you would rather withhold the information from the appropriate agencies, when it clearly meets the bar as a safety-related defect. Your attitude and that of those who wish to withhold is NOT common on ANY other car forums I'm on. On every other car forum, if there is a safety defect, people will chime in on reporting it and there's no bashing of the messenger.

Right on cue, indeed. Hope you and those who are in favor of not filing safety defects w/the appropriate agency (e.g. NHTSA) don't work for or ever plan to for Tesla or any automaker (or aviation, medical equipment or any other critical systems) in anything that relates to safety, engineering or repair, because it's clear that you'd blow off many clear safety defects as non-safety issues.

 

[FlasherZ]

As usual, you would rather withhold the information from the appropriate agencies, when it clearly meets the bar as a safety-related defect. Your attitude and that of those who wish to withhold is NOT common on ANY other car forums I'm on. On every other car forum, if there is a safety defect, people will chime in on reporting it and there's no bashing of the messenger.

No, I don't feel it necessary to waste taxpayer dollars when it's already being addressed by the manufacturer and customers. It won't open in motion, the driver is warned with three chimes, and as Tesla replaces the handles in the limited number of affected cars it has fixed the problem. The government will do nothing but waste my money, and then tell Tesla to fix the OP's issue - and oh, wait, it already is being fixed, go figure!

The OP ran into a scheduling conflict at a service center, not a refusal to fix the problem. When escalated, they pulled the repair up in queue. So please stop telling people to go do unnecessary BS. You've made it quite a crusade on other forums, and you've had your say in the thread I referenced above.

On other car forums, you see a willingness to report it because the manufacturer is usually telling the customer that "it's not happening", "it's your fault", or "we can't reproduce it". Tesla works with its customers, other manufacturers -- usually their dealers -- aren't so cooperative. When the other manufacturers *are* cooperative, indeed they take the same position that there is no need to report it, especially when it's not a critical safety issue (although you sure do seem to be a big proponent of reporting anything at all -- perhaps that scratch in my seat leather caused by my son should be reported? Seems like a spring might eventually break through and scratch my back!)

 

[cwerdna]

I think these posts should be moved to the thread mentioned above. On other car forums, you see a willingness to report it because the manufacturer is usually telling the customer that "it's not happening", "it's your fault", or "we can't reproduce it". Tesla works with its customers, other manufacturers -- usually their dealers -- aren't so cooperative.

I've not seen the above happening w/the models of cars I've had in the past ~2 decades.

Even then, it is likely illegal to not issue a recall for safety-related issues and instead, quietly fix them.

Per Motor Vehicle Defects and Safety Recalls: What Every Vehicle Owner Should Know | Safercar.gov | NHTSA

Manufacturers voluntarily initiate many of these recalls, while others are either influenced by NHTSA investigations or ordered by NHTSA via the courts. If a safety defect is discovered, the manufacturer must notify NHTSA, as well as vehicle or equipment owners, dealers, and distributors. The manufacturer is then required to remedy the problem at no charge to the owner. NHTSA is responsible for monitoring the manufacturer’s corrective action to ensure successful completion of the recall campaign.

They don't even need to be for large numbers of vehicles. All the ones listed at The Top 10 Smallest Recalls of 2013 involved under 100 units each, w/the the smallest affecting FOUR units.

Here's a recent recall involving all 2012-2014 Prius v wagons:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchResults?prodType=V&searchType=PROD&targetCategory=A&searchCriteria.model=PRIUS+V&stats=1785810%2C3%2C0%2C40%2C1%2CPRIUS+V&makeStats=&jsonBaseURL=%2Fdownloads%2Ffolders%2F&searchCriteria.model_yr=2012&searchCriteria.make=TOYOTA&searchCriteria.prod_ids=1785810

Report Receipt Date: JUL 15, 2015
NHTSA Campaign Number: 15V449000
Component(s): HYBRID PROPULSION SYSTEM
All Products Associated with this Recall expand
Details close
5 Associated Documents close
Manufacturer: Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing
SUMMARY:
Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing (Toyota) is recalling certain model year 2012-2014 Prius V vehicles manufactured August 22, 2011, to June 30, 2014. A component within the hybrid inverter assembly may overheat, causing the hybrid system to reduce output power allowing the vehicle to only drive a short distance. In some circumstances, the hybrid system may shut down causing the vehicle to stop while being driven.
CONSEQUENCE:
The vehicle may enter a fail-safe/limp-home mode that limits the drivability of the vehicle. The hybrid system could also shut down completely resulting in a vehicle stall, increasing the risk of a crash.

From http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM482439/RCORRD-15V449-4622.pdf, it's clear Toyota did a pretty thorough investigation and

July 9, 2015
Based on the above investigation, Toyota decided to conduct a voluntary safety recall campaign
on the subject vehicles.
As of July 7, 2015, Toyota is not aware of any crashes or injuries caused by this condition.
Two Toyota field reports and 62 warranty claims have been received that relate or may relate to
this condition. Multiple counts of the same incident are counted separately.

This is out of 108K vehicles.

The OP brought up safety and unsafe numerous times, as have others. You seem bent on people not reporting safety defects.

 

[cwerdna]

Hmmm.... interesting that a moderator decided to move my posts, so that the OP may not see them. I see what's going on here.

100% agreed. It's not about Tesla "doing the right thing". These reports need to happen so that a bigger picture can form.

Exactly!

Really, I feel like manufacturers should be required to report themselves (maybe they are, I don't know).

Per http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/2014/Hyundai-agrees-to-pay-$17.35-million-fine

"Federal law requires automakers to report safety-related defects to NHTSA within five days, and neither NHTSA nor the American public will accept anything less," said NHTSA Acting Administrator David Friedman. "Hyundai failed to act to protect their customers and others that were harmed in an accident, and must change the way they deal with all safety related defects."

Makes perfect sense to not report legitimate safety defects to safety agencies, not.

Just because 1 or even a couple guys experienced it, doesn't mean there's not a batch of other cars (could be 1 or 2, could be a dozen or could be thousands) w/the same defect.

 

[evp]

We can take NHTSA reports right to our state Representatives and Senators and say "look: restricting Tesla to a single point of presence in the state is a safety issue". I've already offered my Representative a Tesla launch. When I take her out for her ride, this is a point I'll definitely take up with her.

When state laws cause restraint of trade, politicians can sweep it under the table. When they cause potential safety hazards, it's more difficult.

 

[dsm363]

Hmmm.... interesting that a moderator decided to move my posts, so that the OP may not see them. I see what's going on here.

Exactly!

Per http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/2014/Hyundai-agrees-to-pay-$17.35-million-fine

Makes perfect sense to not report legitimate safety defects to safety agencies, not.

Just because 1 or even a couple guys experienced it, doesn't mean there's not a batch of other cars (could be 1 or 2, could be a dozen or could be thousands) w/the same defect.

It's not that interesting. A link was left there pointing here. Your crusade to report everything to the NTHSA belongs here.

 

[cwerdna]

I was made aware of Volkswagen e-Golf Forum View topic - Dangerous E-Golf Shut Downs via another forum. Notice there's no BS of downplaying the issue, claiming that loss of propulsion aren't safety issues, withholding reports from NHTSA, attacking people who suggest reporting to NTHSA, etc.?

The above is what normal car forums looks like when it comes to clear safety defects.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

I was made aware of Volkswagen e-Golf Forum View topic - Dangerous E-Golf Shut Downs via another forum. Notice there's no BS of downplaying the issue, claiming that loss of propulsion aren't safety issues, withholding reports from NHTSA, attacking people who suggest reporting to NTHSA, etc.?

The above is what normal car forums looks like when it comes to clear safety defects.

...Ok (?)

 

[dsm363]

I was made aware of Volkswagen e-Golf Forum View topic - Dangerous E-Golf Shut Downs via another forum. Notice there's no BS of downplaying the issue, claiming that loss of propulsion aren't safety issues, withholding reports from NHTSA, attacking people who suggest reporting to NTHSA, etc.?

The above is what normal car forums looks like when it comes to clear safety defects.

I'm sorry we are not normal enough.

Attacking? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Either way not everyone is the same. Most here don't feel the way you do about this. You've made your point know. Do you even have a dog in this fight as a Tesla owner? I thought you said you didn't own one yet. If owners aren't concerned I think bringing this issue up ten times should be enough.

 

[sukhi]

No, I don't feel it necessary to waste taxpayer dollars when it's already being addressed by the manufacturer and customers. It won't open in motion, the driver is warned with three chimes, and as Tesla replaces the handles in the limited number of affected cars it has fixed the problem. The government will do nothing but waste my money, and then tell Tesla to fix the OP's issue - and oh, wait, it already is being fixed, go figure!

The OP ran into a scheduling conflict at a service center, not a refusal to fix the problem. When escalated, they pulled the repair up in queue. So please stop telling people to go do unnecessary BS. You've made it quite a crusade on other forums, and you've had your say in the thread I referenced above.

On other car forums, you see a willingness to report it because the manufacturer is usually telling the customer that "it's not happening", "it's your fault", or "we can't reproduce it". Tesla works with its customers, other manufacturers -- usually their dealers -- aren't so cooperative. When the other manufacturers *are* cooperative, indeed they take the same position that there is no need to report it, especially when it's not a critical safety issue (although you sure do seem to be a big proponent of reporting anything at all -- perhaps that scratch in my seat leather caused by my son should be reported? Seems like a spring might eventually break through and scratch my back!)

I think you have a basic misunderstanding of the role of the regulatory bodies and the safety culture. I would urge you to study the regulatory and reporting protocols in place for the aircraft, nuclear power and medical device and pharma industry. Let's take medical device industry, every customer complaint is handled in a very well defined manner and open to regulatory audit without any notice. All complaints have to be investigated and finding completed within 60 days and so on. The disposition of the complaints are maintained and analyzed to look for any trends that might requiring revisiting the prior issues. You will not believe how many issues that start as not reproducible or user error turn out to be broader issues. It is not always about punishing someone,, it is about creating a transparent culture of safety, mutual learning and responsiveness.

The history is replete with industries ignoring safety issues and also it is critical to have frameworks that allow learnings across the industry. I suppose GM thought it was doing the right thing with the ignition switch issues.

Even if Tesla is doing the right thing, there needs to be level of transparency and only an independent body can ensure that.

 

[FlasherZ]

While I might agree with the premise of the intention of the NHTSA, that's not the way it's set up today.

At this moment, it's set up as a nanny-state body and, in Tesla's specific case, its possible efficacy is far below what Tesla can do itself, namely because of the issues associated with limited self-reporting, bias, and use as a malicious weapon (see the activities over the past 24 hours). It's more effective with big complex systems involving many different parties (dealerships, manufacturers, etc.).

So while I agree with what you think they're trying to accomplish, they're not accomplishing it... and they're doing far from it. I don't believe in throwing good money after bad, so until they find a way to do it, I don't want more of my money going to it.

 

[WhiteCap]

No, I don't feel it necessary to waste taxpayer dollars when it's already being addressed by the manufacturer and customers...

VW is a pretty clear demonstration that manufacturers can't be blindly trusted to "do the right thing" on principal alone. While such behavior might not be in Tesla's culture today, who can say what the future holds. Trying to control one's media story through NDA's isn't a reassuring start - far better would be to control the story through a serious quality focus. There is a reason that Toyota is where they are.

Let me rephrase it this way, "Do you think Toyota would have shipped the Model X with the FWD problems that Tesla did, or would they have delayed deliveries?"