Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

When will 100+ KWh battery become available?

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
I'm curious where you think the efficiency gains will come from? Just the weight dropped due to a more energy dense battery?

Admittedly 50% is optimistic (hence 'hoping...'), as is the suggestion that such improvement would coincide [on a timeline] with a 150kw battery and superdupercharging....but still, there's plenty to be gained with future technology. Plus, incremental efficiency improvements are more than just additive.

For sure, mass drop from batteries (or future storage gizmos) will be huge. As technology improves we will see significant mass drop from alternative construction materials (i3-esque, composite wheels/seats, etc.) and designs (like crushable vs foldable crash structures). I think we may eventually see elimination of the mechanical braking system completely, which will be another big % drop. Downsizing/reinventing/eliminating the 12v system is another chunk (mostly from the battery). With all that mass loss, drive train components (motors, gearboxes, wheels, tires) can be downsized as a result, further reducing mass (AND permitting better packaging and thus better aero). A 150kwh Tesla under 2000 pounds is inevitable. That will be a HUGE efficiency bump from our 5000 pound MSes.

Aero really has plenty to go. There's obvious multi % benefits with things like mirrors and wheels, but new concepts and computing jumps will continue to add improvement as well--as much or more than the obvious big ticket items. Future manufacturing techniques will allow for finer shaping on the aero surfaces and fewer/tighter joints between components. Packaging concepts will evolve as designers move away from traditional ICE-based logic.

While high, electrical efficiencies can still be improved. We're basically driving around 5+ year old technology for many of the components, which is more or less only second gen EV tech (roadster = first gen). Improved thermal management falls in this category. There's % to be gained here, and any % gained means fewer batteries required...which means less recurring cost to the manufacturer...so its not like this stone will go unturned.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ccutrer
Admittedly 50% is optimistic (hence 'hoping...'), as is the suggestion that such improvement would coincide [on a timeline] with a 150kw battery and superdupercharging....but still, there's plenty to be gained with future technology. Plus, incremental efficiency improvements are more than just additive.

For sure, mass drop from batteries (or future storage gizmos) will be huge. As technology improves we will see significant mass drop from alternative construction materials (i3-esque, composite wheels/seats, etc.) and designs (like crushable vs foldable crash structures). I think we may eventually see elimination of the mechanical braking system completely, which will be another big % drop. Downsizing/reinventing/eliminating the 12v system is another chunk (mostly from the battery). With all that mass loss, drive train components (motors, gearboxes, wheels, tires) can be downsized as a result, further reducing mass (AND permitting better packaging and thus better aero). A 150kwh Tesla under 2000 pounds is inevitable. That will be a HUGE efficiency bump from our 5000 pound MSes.

Aero really has plenty to go. There's obvious multi % benefits with things like mirrors and wheels, but new concepts and computing jumps will continue to add improvement as well--as much or more than the obvious big ticket items. Future manufacturing techniques will allow for finer shaping on the aero surfaces and fewer/tighter joints between components. Packaging concepts will evolve as designers move away from traditional ICE-based logic.

While high, electrical efficiencies can still be improved. We're basically driving around 5+ year old technology for many of the components, which is more or less only second gen EV tech (roadster = first gen). Improved thermal management falls in this category. There's % to be gained here, and any % gained means fewer batteries required...which means less recurring cost to the manufacturer...so its not like this stone will go unturned.
Cool, so you're talking about incremental improvements from all sorts of places, not just "if we can get a 150kWh battery, it will obviously be more efficient from begin much lighter". I'm all for that. And the mirrors is a great place to start - I'm already used to using the rear facing camera rather than the rear view mirror on the X, because it offers a much better view.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Red Sage
There's not much efficiency to be gained. Electric drive trains are VERY efficient, the Tesla is very aerodynamic. You'd gain a little from weight reduction but not that much. Maybe 5% overall is still available. I struggle to see much more.

Yes, the only way efficiency can be dramatically improved from where we are now is by violating the laws of Physics as we know them. An electric power train is 75-90% efficient (depending on the situation) whereas the top efficiency for an ICE is around 25% and the ideal efficiency for an ICE is around 40% (unachievable in the real world).

ICEs have room to improve efficiency, EVs have more limited options. Improved aerodynamics helps and some advancements like being able to eliminate the outside mirrors will boost efficiency, but getting a 5000 pound car to 5 miles/KWh at 75 MPH is pretty much impossible unless you can figure out some way to eliminate air resistance, at which point the car's occupants die ofasphyxiation and you burn 10 KWh/mi to maintain the force field or whatever to drive the car in a vacuum.

The only feasible thing for the future is larger battery capacities. Better energy density being the key. When EVs have an EPA range of 500 miles or better, they will be capable of towing trailers, hauling heavy loads, driving in cold or with bad headwinds, etc. with no concerns. But until then, some degree of range anxiety is going to exist and there will be many factors that take you way down from the EPA range. Because ICEs are so inefficient, the losses from heavy loads, wind resistance, etc. get more lost in the noise than with EVs where anything can reduce your range.
 
  • Like
  • Disagree
Reactions: Red Sage and bxr140
Yes, the only way efficiency can be dramatically improved from where we are now is by violating the laws of Physics as we know them. An electric power train is 75-90% efficient (depending on the situation) whereas the top efficiency for an ICE is around 25% and the ideal efficiency for an ICE is around 40% (unachievable in the real world).

ICEs have room to improve efficiency, EVs have more limited options. Improved aerodynamics helps and some advancements like being able to eliminate the outside mirrors will boost efficiency, but getting a 5000 pound car to 5 miles/KWh at 75 MPH is pretty much impossible unless you can figure out some way to eliminate air resistance, at which point the car's occupants die ofasphyxiation and you burn 10 KWh/mi to maintain the force field or whatever to drive the car in a vacuum.

The only feasible thing for the future is larger battery capacities. Better energy density being the key. When EVs have an EPA range of 500 miles or better, they will be capable of towing trailers, hauling heavy loads, driving in cold or with bad headwinds, etc. with no concerns. But until then, some degree of range anxiety is going to exist and there will be many factors that take you way down from the EPA range. Because ICEs are so inefficient, the losses from heavy loads, wind resistance, etc. get more lost in the noise than with EVs where anything can reduce your range.
I think there is still a lot of room for Tesla to improve range. Here are some examples:
- Removing side mirrors
- Evolving shape further to make it more aerodynamic
- Having more spoiler angles (or a continuous range) to be more efficient at every speed
- Reducing weight by utilizing more carbon fiber and other composites
- Reducing weight by utilizing next-gen batteries
- Smarter software to minimize vampire drain and more efficient algorithms
- Implementing 4 independent motors, so regen can be used instead of brakes (torque vectoring) to slow individual tires (e.g. in a turn)
- More aerodynamic rims
- Designing/Implementing a more efficient and more reliable 2-speed gear-box (they tried this once and failed) or a CVT
- Implementing hidden solar panels in roof-line to power a small fan to ventilate vehicle on hot days (to reduce cooling requirements)
- Using more efficient electronics (e.g. Laptop-grade, 12nm silicon) That screen gets warm which also requires more cooling
- dynamo pedals for passengers, so they can get some exercise and help charge the batteries ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Odebek and ohmman
I think there is still a lot of room for Tesla to improve range. Here are some examples:
- Removing side mirrors
- Evolving shape further to make it more aerodynamic
- Having more spoiler angles (or a continuous range) to be more efficient at every speed
- Reducing weight by utilizing more carbon fiber and other composites
- Reducing weight by utilizing next-gen batteries
- Smarter software to minimize vampire drain and more efficient algorithms
- Implementing 4 independent motors, so regen can be used instead of brakes (torque vectoring) to slow individual tires (e.g. in a turn)
- More aerodynamic rims
- Designing/Implementing a more efficient and more reliable 2-speed gear-box (they tried this once and failed) or a CVT
- Implementing hidden solar panels in roof-line to power a small fan to ventilate vehicle on hot days (to reduce cooling requirements)
- Using more efficient electronics (e.g. Laptop-grade, 12nm silicon) That screen gets warm which also requires more cooling
- dynamo pedals for passengers, so they can get some exercise and help charge the batteries ;)

The things listed could provide some minor benefit, or none at all. At most, do all of these things, and you could see 5-10%. The two speed gearbox, for normal highway speed, would probably make things worse rather than better because frictional loads would be greater than with the current 1 speed. Electric motors are pretty efficient across a wide range of speeds - unlike ICEs that lose efficiency dramatically above and below ideal power/rpm settings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Red Sage
Seems it wasn't done by anyone I saw since mentioned.... anyone have a recent delivery MX and able to go look at the lable on the battery pack and see what it shows?

IMG_4491.JPG


P90DL - Delivered 2.5 weeks ago - seems to be a newer revision battery, but still labeled as 90kWh.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Screwbal
Tesla claims ‘Quickest Production Car in the World’ title with new 100 kWh battery pack: 0-60 in 2.5s & 315 mile range

The automaker released the specs for the P100D version for both the Model S and the Model X, and the performance numbers will blow your mind. Tesla now claims the title for ‘the Quickest Production Car in the World’ with the Model S. Here are the main specs:

Model S P100D with Ludicrous mode
  • Range: 315 miles (EPA Estimate) / 613 km (NEDC Estimate)
  • 0-60 mph acceleration: 2.5 seconds
  • 0-100 km/h acceleration: 2.7 seconds
  • Price: starts at $134,500
Model X P100D with Ludicrous Mode
  • Range: 289 miles (EPA Estimate) / 542 km (NEDC Estimate)
  • 0-60 mph acceleration: 2.9 seconds
  • 0-100 km/h acceleration: 3.1 seconds
  • Price: starts at $135,500
Yep, you read that right. An all-electric 4-door sedan with a 0 to 60 mph acceleration in 2.5 seconds and a SUV with a 0 to 60 mph acceleration under 3 seconds. Elon Musk described the new P100D pack as “complex” and that Tesla will first focus on the performance P100D version and the 100D will follow “several months” later.

Model S and Model X P100D with Ludicrous mode are available for order right now. He added that they plan for “200 P100Ds per week” right now, but he sees the number increasing in the coming months. It represents about 10% of Tesla’s current production of ~2,000 vehicles per week. For the 100 kWh battery pack, Tesla is using the same battery cell, but a new module and pack architecture, new cooling system and electronics. CTO JB Straubel described the upgrade as a “significant change”.

The exterior of the pack is the same, which means that it is available as an upgrade. Existing P90D with Ludicrous mode owners can upgrade to a P100D for a $20,000 fee. It is not a software upgrade. The actual pack will be replaced and the used 90kWh pack will have to be recycled. Tesla customers who have ordered a P90D with Ludicrous mode, but have not taken delivery of their vehicle may choose to upgrade to P100D for $10,000.
 
Last edited: