Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

When will we have a Basic Minimum Income?

When will we (The US) have a Basic Minimum income?

  • Never. Have you seen Elysium? Yeah... get ready.

    Votes: 76 53.9%
  • ~5 years

    Votes: 5 3.5%
  • ~10 years

    Votes: 6 4.3%
  • ~20 years

    Votes: 27 19.1%
  • ~40 years

    Votes: 17 12.1%
  • >100 years

    Votes: 10 7.1%

  • Total voters
    141
This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
The deep irony is that the people that need a UBI the most are also the most likely to oppose it. I would love to see a poll of people that work for their income vs people that receive income from investments... I'd be willing to bet that people that work for their money would overwhelmingly oppose a UBI while investors would overwhelmingly support it.

I think that on some level working for something adds value to it. Someone who works for their income assigns greater value to money. Once you experience the turbulence of the market (I 'made' >$2k sitting on my couch yesterday) you realize how fake money is....

I don't know how to break this cycle.... my co-workers have no qualms about doing pointless labour as long as they get paid. I'm the opposite. I don't care how much I make so long as what I'm doing has value (provided my financial needs are met) I think the first step is exposing 'money' for what it really is. FAKE! Completely, 100%, fake. In nearly every sense of the word. It's a social construct. A tool for allocating resources and encouraging people to work. What happens when there's little work that needs to be done?

Too many people are ideologically stuck on the idea that 'More better technology makes more better jobs for horses'. I hope people start to recognize the absurdity of leaving resources sidelined because there aren't enough people doing work that doesn't need to be done.... it's time to shift to more of a demand side economy.

Yes, not the same thing, but the same mindset will block your success:-( Analysis | A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news for liberals
 
  • Like
Reactions: DragonWatch
The funny thing is that the next published article contradicted this one in the WaPo, posted literally the next day.

Perspective | Seattle’s higher minimum wage is actually working just fine

tl;dr:
But the idea that raising the minimum wage has a much larger effect on hours than on wages strains credulity, especially since, as economists Ben Zipperer and John Schmitt have noted, Seattle’s increase “is within the range of increases that other research has found to have had little to no effect on employment.” The study also finds that the minimum wage caused large employment and hours gains in higher-wage jobs, which suggests that its “methodology fails to account properly for the booming Seattle labor market during the period studied.” It’s not entirely clear why the University of Washington team gets such a weird result — since their data isn’t public, we can’t check it — but it’s worth noting at least two important issues with their study.
 
This article is not about higher taxes, it is the decaying of a society focused on glitter and not the truth. This article is also about climate change/global warming and why political battles are heating up (get it, global warming). And NO, single payer medical coverage will not solve the problem:-( I only wish it was that simple.

This is what tiping points look like:-( Oh, and it is man/woman made.

As opioid overdoses exact a higher price, communities ponder who should be saved

When people do not have jobs and feel whole, they withdraw and feel inadequate. We teach our children from day one that jobs, wealth and religion define us, male or female. We can drop religion and still stand on our two legs, but if you do not have wealth or a job the drowning of your failure is the easiest solution. Since the seventies, at a minimum, we have hyped this as technology and efficiency eliminated our fundamental truths/falsehoods (jobs, wealth and religion).

We are our own worst enemy.
 
And NO, single payer medical coverage will not solve the problem:-( I only wish it was that simple.

That's a little like saying EVs don't solve global warming. OR solar panels don't solve global warming. It's a complex problem so it's going to need a complex solution but EVs and Solar Panels ARE a part of the solution.

Single Payer is a BIG part of the solution.

Ideology is the enemy. Single Payer is a pretty obvious solution that literally every other western nation uses... Marijuana has been shown to be a much safer and FAR FAR cheaper alternative to opioids for chronic pain. No one has ever OD'd on Marijuana.
 
That's a little like saying EVs don't solve global warming. OR solar panels don't solve global warming. It's a complex problem so it's going to need a complex solution but EVs and Solar Panels ARE a part of the solution.

Single Payer is a BIG part of the solution.

Ideology is the enemy. Single Payer is a pretty obvious solution that literally every other western nation uses... Marijuana has been shown to be a much safer and FAR FAR cheaper alternative to opioids for chronic pain. No one has ever OD'd on Marijuana.

What that article brings to light is White Privelge is failing and what we are seeing is only the tip of the iceberg.

I along with every veteran had single payer medical coverage upon retirement (1994) ~ exactly the same as active duty soldiers. But, things changed for the first time since I joined the army back in 1969. Now retirees and medically discharged veterans must pay for medical insurance:-(

@nwdiver I have dedicated my entire life for what I believe is the greater good; I carry the memory of fellow high school track buddy that was killed in Vietnam the year before I graduated (1968). My father and I along with several other Eagle scouts transformed the Knights of Dunamis (KD) into the National Eagle Scout Association (NESA). I turned my command, the Western Sectinal Command, of the KD to Bob a young black Eagle Scout in Los Angeles (1969) as I enlisted into the army. During the same period three of my fellow high school buddies and I battled the administration and went rogue to create a champion soccer team (Southbay Wolverines) or the pioneers of soccer as you know it today. Later, I was asked to run the service and give the sermon as a PFC while my chaplain went on leave the summer of 1970. My sermon on "Love" apparently fell on deaf ears and blind eyes. In and around 2005 I returned both my and that of my deceased son's Eagle medal to the Boy Scouts of America in protest against their anti-gay stance. As you may know it was a stepped process, but first they allowed gay boys and drawing religious protest they opened up to gay men. I have never received my son's or my medal back:-(

My military career was from the bottom up. From the bottom of the White Priveleged (WASP) I worked thru the ranks of PVT E-1 to SP5 E-5, used GI Bill to work thru college, eventually my Master's; returned thru the army Officer Candidate School (OCS) to work thru the ranks as a butter bar and retire as a successful Major. My only combat experience was as a mid grade Major I was publicly attacked by a US Marine Major. He had known me from office basic days. My military schooling records were less that stellar, and this particular Major thought he had the golden public fourm to attack me. Keeping it short; I cut off his pee pee; put it in a blender and handed it back to him as a fruit smoothie. The audience (about a hundred senior officers) loved it:) The next twenty years of my life was dedicated to my wife and children. My wife got her Masters and eventually retired as the state of Washington Department of Transportation Landscape Architect to fulfill her life's ambition. My ego took a beating supporting her, but I am damned proud of her.

My wife and I have done everything thing humanly possible fighting for Mother Earth and I have led the charge for "We the People" I define myself by observing others, so when I say that I am not a Confederate Officer, I am hoping you can read between the lines. We are everything electric ~ car, tools, lawnmower etc. We go on marches for human rights. I have created a call sign for myself that incorporates my retired military rank and my initials ~ MajorBS ~ that call sign tells you everything about me; my philosophy of Religion, Politics and the Village Idiots. Do not be offended, my Village Idiot relatives started the King Phillips War. I apparently almost did not make it to today:)

Please do not in any way take this as pounding my chest ~ I would hurt myself at this age:) No, my soul hurts at what has been denied my fellow countrymen and humanity. There are no liberals or conservatives ~ No, there are those that deny or those that grant and support ~ I choose to grant and support.

@nwdiver I have tried for years to steer people, relative and friends alike, towards what I preceive the greater good. In some cases I have been successful and others a dismal failure:-( As the old saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink." But foolishly I keep on trying.

This article, I referred to, highlights how sad as a nation since the sixties we have become. If only I could wave a wand:) I can insert those articles and try to challenge the thinking, but I cannot continue the charge alone and be successful. I believe in education; I believe in rational and critical thinking; but too often emotional thinking clogs the pipes. I asked, at 18, the christen education committee at my church if Jesus actually died on the cross, anddddd lived to talk about it:)

Even the Chinese Communists, you know the single party government, has single payer medical coverage:)

This is enough MajorBS for one night:)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: nwdiver
Sooo.... just have people work for works sake? You dig a hole and someone else can fill in the hole? 2 jobs for every hole? Seems pretty silly to do work that isn't necessary just to get a check... why not just hand out the check?



The purpose of a basic minimum income would be to create a minimum level of consumption.... be kind of a waste to have millions of people living in poverty with idle production capability since there's no one capable of purchasing that production. You get caught in a catch-22.
There is plenty of cleaning up and infrastructure repair work to keep everyone occupied....forever!
 
There is plenty of cleaning up and infrastructure repair work to keep everyone occupied....forever!

Pretty unlikely... I don't think we need to pave the planet... even then....

tigerstone.jpg


Coming soon to a highway near you....

b-robots-b-20170317-e1489647041320.jpg


'Robots will be able to do everything better than us' - Elon Musk

Here are some interesting numbers... the total number of people employed in the maintenance and construction of highways, streets and bridges is <500k. Even if we ignore the fact that technology increases productivity and assume that number magically doubles to 1M... there are >4M people employed in moving things from point A to point B. It's not unreasonable that caravaning (not even self-driving) could easily slash that in have. That's ~1M more unemployed.... and that's just the tip of the AI iceberg.

Hard Truths;
- Climate Change is Real
- Private health insurance cannot work
- We're gonna need a UBI sooner than later....
 
Last edited:
What if UBI was structured to not just be money, but more like credits good only for basic life needs -- housing, normal food, non-designer clothing. That might make it more palatable, so you can't do something like live in your mom's basement and use the UBI to buy video games, or live on the street and blow it all on booze.
 
What if UBI was structured to not just be money, but more like credits good only for basic life needs -- housing, normal food, non-designer clothing. That might make it more palatable, so you can't do something like live in your mom's basement and use the UBI to buy video games, or live on the street and blow it all on booze.

That wouldn't be UBI. The fundamental idea of UBI is that people are guaranteed a minimum level of income, no questions asked. Your post is an example of why it'd be so difficult to get it implemented and why I lean towards it not happening. People cannot yet let go of the principle that wealth must be distributed through employment or investment and that any other support should be conditional.

The recent buzz around UBI has happened because of the new AI hype.

I don't think we're at a point where we really need a UBI and AI and robotics might not ever get there.
A lot of what UBI would help improve could be improved by simple shifts in government policy that recognize glaring market and human failures.
 
Last edited:
That wouldn't be UBI. The fundamental idea of UBI is that people are guaranteed a minimum level of income, no questions asked. Your post is an example of why it'd be so difficult to get it implemented and why I lean towards it not happening. People cannot yet let go of the principle that wealth must be distributed through employment or investment and that any other support should be conditional.
I don't know. I don't think it's that much of a stretch to expect that universal basic minimum income be used for universal basic minimum living. I'm not against it, I'm just saying it probably needs guard rails to get even the slightest approval from conservatives. I was once broke and homeless, literally. I was out of a job, wasn't getting a lot of call backs on my job search, wife had left me, spent my last saved dollars on rent. In my late 20s. Luckily, I had family I was able to move in with until I got back on my feet. UBI would have been very helpful to me at that point. But I also could have just used UBI to play games in me mums basement. Just sayin'

BTW, getting back on your feet is not an easy task. There's an unfortunate beat a man when he's down aspect to our society. It's extra hard getting a job after having an unemployed gap. It's also extra hard getting car insurance after having an uninsured gap, and when you do get it again, the rates are higher. And believe me, when you run out of money, car insurance is not what you save the last of your dollars for. Just a couple of examples. Do you need a car? It can be really hard to make it to job interviews without one. Oh, that reminds me. I hate Millers First Insurance. During my dark days, but when I still had money for insurance, they cancelled my car insurance policy for being unemployed. After that, and after they rejected a nice plea for reinstatement, I used to send them hate mail every single year. Did that for like 15 years. A handwritten letter to the corporate office every time.
 
Last edited:
I don't know. I don't think it's that much of a stretch to expect that universal basic minimum income be used for universal basic minimum living. I'm not against it, I'm just saying it probably needs guard rails to get even the slightest approval from conservatives. I was once broke and homeless, literally. I was out of a job, wasn't getting a lot of call backs on my job search, wife had left me, spent my last saved dollars on rent. In my late 20s. Luckily, I had family I was able to move in with until I got back on my feet. UBI would have been very helpful to me at that point. But I also could have just used UBI to play games in me mums basement. Just sayin'

BTW, getting back on your feet is not an easy task. There's an unfortunate beat a man when he's down aspect to our society. It's extra hard getting a job after having an unemployed gap. It's also extra hard getting car insurance after having an uninsured gap, and when you do get it again, the rates are higher. And believe me, when you run out of money, car insurance is not what you save the last of your dollars for. Just a couple of examples. Do you need a car? It can be really hard to make it to job interviews without one. Oh, that reminds me. I hate Millers First Insurance. During my dark days, but when I still had money for insurance, they cancelled my car insurance policy for being unemployed. After that, and after they rejected a nice plea for reinstatement, I used to send them hate mail every single year. Did that for like 15 years. A handwritten letter to the corporate office every time.
That sucks, sorry to hear you had to go through that....glad you made it alive.

There seems to be a lot that will shift and when it does, maybe the "beat a man when he's down" thinking will go away once there is a mass population that are all in the same circumstance?
 
Single Payer is a pretty obvious solution that literally every other western nation uses... Marijuana has been shown to be a much safer and FAR FAR cheaper alternative to opioids for chronic pain. No one has ever OD'd on Marijuana.

Anyone that has ever been a part of the VA Medical System should understand how "Single Payer" Gov healthcare would run. Question, when the government is involved is anything ever run efficiently and well?

As a physician that has seen the inside of the VA Medical System, there is no way on this earth I would wish that system, or anything like it, on anyone. US Gov run healthcare is SH!T, plain and simple.
 
- Eliminating Smallpox
- Transcontinental Railroad
- Getting a man on the moon
- GPS
- Interstate Highway System
- Elimination of Malaria from the US
- Elimination of Polio from the US
- Defeating Hitler

I'm sure I could name a few dozen more....

Sometimes the only way to accomplish something is the public working together without profit as the primary motive. The public doesn't necessarily have to 'control' the solution but it does need to fund it. The VA is an example of a system where the government 'runs' healthcare but a system where the public 'funds' healthcare like medicare would work too. If privately driven universal access to healthcare was possible someone would have done it by now.... the US tried... it doesn't work. The US is the only country in the world were you can lose your home by getting sick.... it's pathetic.

While the retirement stuff is a huge debacle and I don't really know if the rest could be run better, I have to say that mail delivery has been reasonably priced, reliable, and on time most of my life.
 
While the retirement stuff is a huge debacle and I don't really know if the rest could be run better, I have to say that mail delivery has been reasonably priced, reliable, and on time most of my life.

Yeah... didn't want to start a debate there... it's not going so well recently...

What's funny about that. Is that even though that's one thing I think most people would agree the private sector is perfectly capable of taking over. Some ideologically driven people I've spoken to are perfectly fine with it for one reason;

'To establish post offices and post roads'

.... it's in the constitution....


What if UBI was structured to not just be money, but more like credits good only for basic life needs -- housing, normal food, non-designer clothing. That might make it more palatable, so you can't do something like live in your mom's basement and use the UBI to buy video games, or live on the street and blow it all on booze.

I think that's a little disingenuous. And; the purpose of a UBI is to create economic activity. To keep capital from stagnating.

I've often thought that instead of raising taxes that income beyond a certain level should 'expire' spend it or it goes away. The problem with the wealthy isn't that they make too much... it's that they spend too little...
 
Last edited:
While the retirement stuff is a huge debacle and I don't really know if the rest could be run better, I have to say that mail delivery has been reasonably priced, reliable, and on time most of my life.
your inexpensive mail is cheap because of massive subsidies, the USPS is a poorly operated inefficient technology deficient operation that runs at multi billion dollar deficits. if held to standards of a private service like FedEx, the USPS would have been belly up a long time ago.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bkp_duke
your inexpensive mail is cheap because of massive subsidies, the USPS is a poorly operated inefficient technology deficient operation that runs at multi billion dollar deficits. if held to standards of a private service like FedEx, the USPS would have been belly up a long time ago.

Thanks skotty..... :(

Yeah... didn't want to start a debate there... it's not going so well recently...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.