When will we have a Basic Minimum Income?

[SDRick]

I find the thought of incentivizing dependence somewhat corrosive to the disadvantaged and philosophically abhorrent. On the other hand, a wealthy society must have a safety net so there is part of me that relishes the thought of eliminating large government bureaucracies for the simplicity and efficiency of UBI.

 

[MikeQ]

Show me the data rather than your intuition. Other places have implemented UBI. Simply see what happened there. No need to theorize about it. Look at the data.

Those who aren't interested in the data are just driven by ideology -- often formed when they read Ayn Rand as a 15 year old. Which are you?

I don't think it's been implemented anywhere on a realistic scale. Finland did a pilot program of like 2000 people. Results were positive but how could they not be? It had all of the benefits without all of the pain. It's great if finland only has 2000 people who need it. Otherwise it becomes painful to pay for. Also Finland is a VERY different country. The closes thing we have in the U.S. is the oil stipend paid to Alaskans. The amount is very small though. I'm sure people love it but it really doesn't change anything. It's just some extra free money. People still have to work.

 

[bkp_duke]

I find the thought of incentivizing dependence somewhat corrosive to the disadvantaged and philosophically abhorrent. On the other hand, a wealthy society must have a safety net so there is part of me that relishes the thought of eliminating large government bureaucracies for the simplicity and efficiency of UBI.

Except I see nothing in the proposals for UBI that would streamline and reduce government bureaucracy. If anything, it would be at least one more entity to deal with. The "Department of Basic Income". LoL.

 

[MikeQ]

Except I see nothing in the proposals for UBI that would streamline and reduce government bureaucracy. If anything, it would be at least one more entity to deal with. The "Department of Basic Income". LoL.

And I could see it becoming a nightmarish political tool to buy votes.

 

[SDRick]

Except I see nothing in the proposals for UBI that would streamline and reduce government bureaucracy. If anything, it would be at least one more entity to deal with. The "Department of Basic Income". LoL.

Yes, the old Department of Basic Income. Being optimistic, I thought UBI would eliminate the whole plethora of related government entities. Realistically, you may be correct. It is rare when you find shrinking and government in the same sentence.

 

[renim]

Show me the data rather than your intuition. Other places have implemented UBI. Simply see what happened there. No need to theorize about it. Look at the data.

Those who aren't interested in the data are just driven by ideology -- often formed when they read Ayn Rand as a 15 year old. Which are you?

simple, visit China

they've lifted perhaps 500 million people out of poverty, there is no UBI in China, but there is motivation to work. If you don't succeed in the city the alternative is that there is always room for another peasant on the farm.

is that a universal safety net? or a universal threat?
perhaps its a matter of perspective, but using a simple measures of improvements in
hogs per person consumption
or
cars per person consumption

China very strongly demonstrates that European type socialism is a failure compared to communism with "Chinese Characteristics"

(I'm not familiar with Ayn Rand, but I did read Animal Farm around 15 years of age, I realise its about eastern European socialism, but its just such a perfect description of modern day China, "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.") Animal Farm, by George Orwell : chapter10

 

[kort677]

The Supreme Courts ruled that corporations are people and therefore having rights (like free speech). Corporate political spending is therefore protected as it is considered the First Amendment right to free speech.

and the problem with that is?

 

[kort677]

simple, visit China

they've lifted perhaps 500 million people out of poverty, there is no UBI in China, but there is motivation to work. If you don't succeed in the city the alternative is that there is always room for another peasant on the farm.

is that a universal safety net? or a universal threat?
perhaps its a matter of perspective, but using a simple measures of improvements in
hogs per person consumption
or
cars per person consumption

China very strongly demonstrates that European type socialism is a failure compared to communism with "Chinese Characteristics"

(I'm not familiar with Ayn Rand, but I did read Animal Farm around 15 years of age, I realise its about eastern European socialism, but its just such a perfect description of modern day China, "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.") Animal Farm, by George Orwell : chapter10

all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others

 

[tomas]

And I could see it becoming a nightmarish political tool to buy votes.

No different from tax cuts.

 

[mspohr]

Interesting study by the IMF reports that increasing tax on the wealthy will reduce inequality and will not impact growth.
IMF: higher taxes for rich will cut inequality without hitting growth

IMF: higher taxes for rich will cut inequality without hitting growth

They also advocate a pro poor strategy
"
It also said inequality should be tackled by giving a more pro-poor slant to public spending.

“Despite progress, gaps in access to quality education and healthcare services between different income groups in the population remain in many countries,” Gaspar and Garcia-Escribano said, adding that in rich countries men with university education lived up to 14 years longer than those with secondary education or less.

“Better public spending can help, for instance, by reallocating education or health spending from the rich to the poor while keeping total public education or health spending unchanged,” they added.

 

[mspohr]

Free housing, food, transport and access to the internet should be given to British citizens in a massive expansion of the welfare state, according to a report warning the rapid advance of technology will lead to job losses.

UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and internet, says report

UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and internet, says report

 

[mspohr]

Wealth of interesting information today

is November marks the 75th anniversary of the Beveridge report – the founding document of the modern welfare state and the answer to the question: what would Clement Attlee do? The Attlee government’s radical agenda, after all, basically enacted every recommendation made by eccentric patrician liberal reformer Sir William Beveridge, who exceeded his simple brief – to survey the country’s social insurance programmes – with a wide range of suggestions aimed at eradicating what he called the five “giant evils”: want, disease, ignorance, squalor and idleness.

Whatever Attlee thought of him, Beveridge was no socialist. He thought taking the burden of healthcare and pension costs away from corporations and individuals and giving them to the government would increase the competitiveness of British industry while producing healthier, wealthier, more motivated and more productive workers keen to buy British goods.

And he was right. The sustained post-second-world-war period of economic growth and near full employment that lasted until the late 70s saw falling poverty, slum clearance, the founding of a free health service and education system alongside rising real incomes and falling inequality – which, in turn, led to higher tax revenues and helped the UK pay off its war debts. In 1950, Seebohm Rowntree – who had surveyed poverty in York in 1899 and 1936 – concluded that the problem had largely been erased.

Want, disease, ignorance, squalor and idleness: are Beveridge’s five evils back?

Want, disease, ignorance, squalor and idleness: are Beveridge’s five evils back?

 

[MikeQ]

You could probably make the argument now that we have a tyranny by corporations. They fund most political campaigns and thereby "own" the legislators who then do whatever corporations want. Voters are really irrelevant. The government doesn't need any of those pesky voters since they have corporations funding them.
So, do corporations want a UBI? Probably not since it might cost them money. However, giving people money to spend on the stuff corporations make might be a way to sell UBI.

If you haven't noticed. Corporations don't care much about U.S. consumers. They are all trying to target China and India. Domestic markets will mater less and less as China and India's middle class expands.

 

[mspohr]

If you haven't noticed. Corporations don't care much about U.S. consumers. They are all trying to target China and India. Domestic markets will mater less and less as China and India's middle class expands.

US is largest consumer economy. Corps build their base here and expand.

 

[bhzmark]

simple, visit China

they've lifted perhaps 500 million people out of poverty, there is no UBI in China, but there is motivation to work. If you don't succeed in the city the alternative is that there is always room for another peasant on the farm.

is that a universal safety net? or a universal threat?
perhaps its a matter of perspective, but using a simple measures of improvements in
hogs per person consumption
or
cars per person consumption

China very strongly demonstrates that European type socialism is a failure compared to communism with "Chinese Characteristics"

(I'm not familiar with Ayn Rand, but I did read Animal Farm around 15 years of age, I realise its about eastern European socialism, but its just such a perfect description of modern day China, "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.") Animal Farm, by George Orwell : chapter10

Was there supposed to be any reference to any data on Ubi? I didn't see any

 

[kort677]

US is largest consumer economy. Corps build their base here and expand.

let me help you out here, in the past the US was the largest consumer economy, in many sectors that supremacy is being supplanted by china. successful people look forwards, not backwards.

 

[MikeQ]

let me help you out here, in the past the US was the largest consumer economy, in many sectors that supremacy is being supplanted by china. successful people look forwards, not backwards.

Exactly. All the major automakers aren't scrambling to have an EV story because Tesla is selling cars in the U.S. It's because Tesla has created a market in China. China will likely be Tesla's largest consumer.

Have you noticed all our blockbuster movies today know incorporate China in their story and how American films don't paint China as an enemy anymore? That's because movie studios want to release their films in China and have appeal in their market.

The company I work for builds entire product lines with the main focus being China.

 

[mspohr]

let me help you out here, in the past the US was the largest consumer economy, in many sectors that supremacy is being supplanted by china. successful people look forwards, not backwards.

US is 4x China.
What's your point? How does this relate to UBI?

List of largest consumer markets - Wikipedia

 

[mspohr]

I believe you, @renim and @MikeQ brought up China. I'm trying to figure out how this relates to UBI. The arguments presented haven't been very clear. The best I can tell now is that you think China's development is a counter argument to the need for a UBI but that doesn't really make any sense as China is at a completely different stage of development than the G20 countries where UBI is being trialed.
I also wonder about the relevance of your fear of socialism which you keep bringing up. I am not advocating socialism (whatever that is) and I don't think anyone else has been advocating socialism or communism. I am advocating that we consider UBI as a supplement to or replacement of existing social programs: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment insurance, food stamps (SNAP), welfare, earned income credit, etc.
You "socialism" posters are entertaining but irrelevant.

 

[bkp_duke]

US is 4x China.
What's your point? How does this relate to UBI?

List of largest consumer markets - Wikipedia

Cracks me up when you ask people "What's your point?" when you start the tangent (talking about size of US economy).

Don't want people replying to these points, then don't start the conversation going astray.