When will we have a Basic Minimum Income?

[mspohr]

The wars aren't pointless. I'm not endorsing them but the reality is that they do server an important purpose. The problem I have with them is the American's get to fund them while they benefit the entire world. Sure there's coalition forces but the U.S. bears the brunt of the cost. These aren't wars that protect the U.S. in the sense that we are being threatened. These wars are to keep the world economy running without disruption. Sometimes it's about oil, sometimes it's about water, etc... it's always about protecting some resource from falling into hands that want to use it for a purpose that is disruptive to the world economy.

Wars to protect resources? Benefit for whom?
Afghanistan - What resources? (We're still there making enemies)
Iraq - still not sure why we fought this one... most commonly we were told "terrorists" but ended up creating more terrorists. They have oil but were never in danger of removing it from the market (until we destroyed the fields).
Korea - What resources?
Vietnam - What resources?
Haiti - Banana wars
Dominican Republic - Banana wars
Lebanon - What resources?
Panama - Noriega?
Somalia - What resources?
ISIL - "terrorists" (created by our previous wars)

There's not much evidence that any of our wars for the past 50 years have done any "good" for us or the world or kept any resources available. Just a colossal waste of our treasure and life.
We'd be much better off spending a lot less on wars and the military and more on basic education, health care, infrastructure and social services... and a UBI.

 

[MikeQ]

If you don't think Iraq was about securing oil fields, there's little point of having a discussion with you.

 

[nwdiver]

If you don't think Iraq was about securing oil fields, there's little point of having a discussion with you.

That was the motive. NOT the justification.

 

[skitown]

When people get upset about subsidies spent on solar and EVs, I often wonder if they consider money spent securing oil fields as helping out the price of gas and diesel at the pump; even if it wasn't the primary mission.

 

[MikeQ]

That was the motive. NOT the justification.

That's kind of obvious since we're debating why we really went to war.

 

[MikeQ]

When people get upset about subsidies spent on solar and EVs, I often wonder if they consider money spent securing oil fields as helping out the price of gas and diesel at the pump; even if it wasn't the primary mission.

Take the wars for oil out of the equation and oil production is still one of the most highly subsidized industries.

One of my major reasons for owning a Tesla is the hope that one day we can stop pretending like we care about Arab countries and treat them like any other country. We pander to them and pretend we're all great allies so we can keep oil flowing while at the same time many of these countries are funding the very people we are fighting wars against.

 

[mspohr]

If you don't think Iraq was about securing oil fields, there's little point of having a discussion with you.

Oil for the US oil companies.... Standard colonialism.
Never a danger that the oil would be taken off the market and since oil is fungible, no danger to world supply or US supply. Just the usual US military doing the bidding of corporations and we're paying the price.

 

[MikeQ]

Oil for the US oil companies.... Standard colonialism.
Never a danger that the oil would be taken off the market and since oil is fungible, no danger to world supply or US supply. Just the usual US military doing the bidding of corporations and we're paying the price.

Secretary of State – John Bolton said:

The critical oil and natural gas producing region that we fought so many wars to try and protectour economy from the adverse impact of losing that supply or having it available only at very high prices.

Former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan:

I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil

President George W. Bush in 2005:

‘If Zarqawi and bin Laden gain control of Iraq, they would create a new training ground for future terrorist attacks,” Bush said. ”They’d seize oil fields to fund their ambitions.”

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

One of my major reasons for owning a Tesla is the hope that one day we can stop pretending like we care about Arab countries and treat them like any other country. We pander to them and pretend we're all great allies so we can keep oil flowing while at the same time many of these countries are funding the very people we are fighting wars against.

Well, that would be nice. However, the Gulf also has a lot of natural gas that's exported as LNG to European and other countries.

But PEV would be a multi-pronged attack: move away from petroleum to other energy sources, allowing more global domestication of transportation energy, plus growing battery manufacturing to help the growth of renewable electricity.

 

[roblab]

I don't think it is that simple.

I share a similar concern.

Culturally speaking, the identity of Americans is highly connected to the line of work they are in. Even people who hate their jobs derive some satisfaction from knowing that they at least contribute to society and earn compensation. If tens of millions of people become idled by automation and artificial intelligence, it will mean taking identity away from those people and causing massive loss of self esteem. Some people will retreat into endless hours of television or drug/alcohol fueled orgies, or video games. Others will become depressed and wither away. Another group may pick up arms and cause trouble, because they have nothing to do and a grievance to resolve.

For a comparison, think of all the people who are retired, who sit and watch TV, do pain killers, play poker with the neighbors. They have their monthly check. If they want more, they find a job welcoming people to WalMart. And they wither away.

Something no one ever mentions is the issue of birth control. We know we are heading into an era where there will be millions of unemployed, and people were considering the world overpopulated fifty years ago, but that's a holy cow: can't touch people's rights to overpopulate, whether or not they are useless, depressed, dangerous, etc. Spay and neuter ought to happen after two pregnancies, maybe. Or sooner. It never has seemed to decrease the dog and cat population.

In Europe people retire early. They live more simply. But again, I'm not sure people grab an assault rifle and kill off their "enemies" because they don't have a job or money.

 

[kort677]

For a comparison, think of all the people who are retired, who sit and watch TV, do pain killers, play poker with the neighbors. They have their monthly check. If they want more, they find a job welcoming people to WalMart. And they wither away.

I love how the liberals have to pigeon hole people based on their own prejudices. I am sure that there are some people who fit into your stereotype but I am certain that there are many who remain in the work force until they are unable to and not because they need the money they stay because the enjoy their work. and there are many others who either prepared for their older years well and live an active life of pursuing their passions be it sports, travel, arts, whatever. just like anything else your one size fits all views rarely fit all.

Something no one ever mentions is the issue of birth control. We know we are heading into an era where there will be millions of unemployed, and people were considering the world overpopulated fifty years ago, but that's a holy cow: can't touch people's rights to overpopulate, whether or not they are useless, depressed, dangerous, etc. Spay and neuter ought to happen after two pregnancies, maybe. Or sooner. It never has seemed to decrease the dog and cat population.

the luddite view of changes

In Europe people retire early. They live more simply. But again, I'm not sure people grab an assault rifle and kill off their "enemies" because they don't have a job or money.

another cookie cutter like view of things. how much time have you spent in europe, and if you did what parts, you can't really believe that a germanic view of the world is anything like a british one or an italian one.

 

[MikeQ]

Something no one ever mentions is the issue of birth control. We know we are heading into an era where there will be millions of unemployed, and people were considering the world overpopulated fifty years ago, but that's a holy cow: can't touch people's rights to overpopulate, whether or not they are useless, depressed, dangerous, etc

I'd be in favor of requiring a license to have children. Implant contraceptives before puberty, remove only after proven you can financially and emotionally support a child.

 

[Max*]

I'd be in favor of requiring a license to have children. Implant contraceptives before puberty, remove only after proven you can financially and emotionally support a child.

Great, more government bureaucracy

 

[kort677]

Great, more government bureaucracy

yes it is just another expansion of government, but if you slow the growth of a parasite before it reproduces it is more cost efficient than allowing the parasite to thrive.

 

[Max*]

yes it is just another expansion of government, but if you slow the growth of a parasite before it reproduces it is more cost efficient than allowing the parasite to thrive.

It was a joke, hence the 2 smilies.

If you want a more serious response: I have mixed feelings about the idea. On one hand I don't like the idea of limiting the number of children people can have (ala China), OTOH I don't want us following the path of 'Idiocracy' (horribly movie/comedy -- based in the future when all the educated people stopped reproducing and all the dumb people had more and more children... sort of where we're headed now anyways)

 

[MikeQ]

It was a joke, hence the 2 smilies.

If you want a more serious response: I have mixed feelings about the idea. On one hand I don't like the idea of limiting the number of children people can have (ala China), OTOH I don't want us following the path of 'Idiocracy' (horribly movie/comedy -- based in the future when all the educated people stopped reproducing and all the dumb people had more and more children... sort of where we're headed now anyways)

We wouldn't have to limit the number of children people have. In fact we'd probably have to encourage people who can get the license to have as many as possible...since most people won't qualify for a license.

 

[kort677]

We wouldn't have to limit the number of children people have. In fact we'd probably have to encourage people who can get the license to have as many as possible...since most people won't qualify for a license.

how many would get a permit to procreate would be limited by IQ, anything below 80, no go.

 

[mspohr]

Stockton to research UBI
3 years ago, Stockton, California, was bankrupt. Now it's trying out a basic income.

Tubbs is particularly well-suited to be the policy’s champion. Upon winning the mayoral election last year, he became both Stockton’s first black mayor and, at 26, the youngest mayor of a city of more than 100,000 people in American history. Tubbs cites as his inspiration Martin Luther King Jr., who called for a guaranteed minimum income in his last book, Where Do We Go From Here: Chaos or Community?, as well as his own experience “growing up in poverty and seeing how much of some of the stress came from trying to stretch dollars to pay for necessities, like bills or school uniforms. When things came up unexpectedly it would cause a lot of hardships.”

“The stress isn’t because people don’t have character,” Tubbs adds. “It’s because people don’t have cash.”

 

[kort677]

“The stress isn’t because people don’t have character,” Tubbs adds. “It’s because people don’t have cash.”

government taking people's cash to redistribute the cash to those who will not, cannot do the necessary things to support themselves is a failed social policy. the election of this person just exhibits the corrosive effects of a bad education system, see the movie IDIOCRACY for a primer.

 

[mspohr]

Here's another article which discusses options to deal with declining areas left behind by change.

https://www.economist.com/news/lead...-economics-geography-right-way-help-declining

geographical divergence has dramatic consequences. A child born in the bottom 20% in wealthy San Francisco has twice as much chance as a similar child in Detroit of ending up in the top 20% as an adult.

They point to the failure of corporate subsidies (PA spent $6 billion with little result) and suggest creating centers based around education.

Bolder still would be to expand the mission of local colleges. In the 19th century America created lots of public technical universities. They were supposed to teach best practice to farmers and factory managers in small towns and rural areas. They could play that role again today for new technologies, much as Germany already has a network of applied-research institutions.
Perhaps most of all, politicians need a different mindset. For progressives, alleviating poverty has demanded welfare; for libertarians, freeing up the economy. Both have focused on people. But the complex interaction of demography, welfare and globalisation means that is insufficient. Assuaging the anger of the left-behind means realising that places matter, too.