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When will we have a Basic Minimum Income?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by nwdiver, Nov 4, 2016.

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When will we (The US) have a Basic Minimum income?

  1. Never. Have you seen Elysium? Yeah... get ready.

    76 vote(s)
    53.9%
  2. ~5 years

    5 vote(s)
    3.5%
  3. ~10 years

    6 vote(s)
    4.3%
  4. ~20 years

    27 vote(s)
    19.1%
  5. ~40 years

    17 vote(s)
    12.1%
  6. >100 years

    10 vote(s)
    7.1%
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  1. MikeQ

    MikeQ Member

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    LoL. I know a bunch of poor people who live paycheck to paycheck and struggle to put food on the table at times. They all have cellphones, Xbox's, computers and TV's though.
     
    • Like x 2
  2. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    Well, Idiocracy exaggerated just a tad.

    The difference in the average number of children is less than 0.6 children between Bachelor mothers (1.9) and high-school dropouts (2.45). High-school grads have averaged 2.19. It's postgraduates that have the starkest difference, averaging only 1.01.

    Assuming zero mobility in educational attainment, with current data (using Pew and Census data), then it'd take about 4 generations until postgrads dropped below 1% , 19 generations until bachelors dropped below 1% of the population, and 56 generations until high-school graduates dropped below 1%.

    Of course, since in reality there _is_ mobility in educational attainment, and given the trend for IQ to _increase_ the Idiocracy scenario is really not going to happen. Rather like BMI. :p
     
    • Informative x 1
  3. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    Throughout history, the rich people in charge have constantly been afraid that the poor (and foreigners, people of color, etc.) would take over the world, leaving the rich people without their privilege. Most recently, the rise of white nationalists/supremacists in the US is the latest manifestation of this fear. The largest experiment of this nature in recent history was the Nazi regime which promoted the idea of Aryan superiority and actively went about demonizing and exterminating jews, foreigners and other marginalized populations.

    Idiocracy lays the blame at the feet of an undeserved target (the poor) while implicitly advocating a terrible solution (eugenics). The movie’s underlying premise is a fundamentally dangerous and backwards way to understand the world... but I assume that is par for the course in today's world.
    From a review: "We’re frustrated by the world, believing that encouraging smarter people to breed would somehow fix our problems. But it simply isn’t so. It’s a distraction from the institutional problems of our society. The problem isn’t that stupid people (again, read: poor) are having too many children. The problem is that we aren’t living up to the ideals and promises we’ve given to each generation of Americans that have come before us. A livable wage, paid maternity leave, proper funding of scientific research — these are the things a functional, civilized society are built upon; the ways that we can improve our world. "

    There is lots of social science to dispute the premise of Idiocracy but that doesn't stop the simplistic parroting of the movie's premise. Unfortunately, the discussion here on UBI has mirrored this with some people regularly disparaging the poor with broad insults and others trying to provide a rational, science based perspective. I don't expect this discussion to provide much enlightenment (and it's rather discouraging).
     
    • Disagree x 2
  4. kort677

    kort677 Banned

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    actually IMHO opinion the first 10 minutes of the movie says it all, the balance I agree is exaggerated but exaggeration is what sells movies.
     
  5. Max*

    Max* Charging

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    Are we talking about the same movie? My takeaway was completely different.
     
  6. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    The idiocy in parroting the movie is that it simply assumes a lack of social and educational mobility. That's the flawed assumption.
     
  7. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    The lack of social and educational mobility in the US has been well documented:
    Poor at 20, Poor for Life
    US social mobility might be even worse than you thought
    https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595437-america-no-less-socially-mobile-it-was-generation-ago-mobility-measured
    Socioeconomic mobility in the United States - Wikipedia
     
  8. bkp_duke

    bkp_duke Active Member

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    I was wondering how long it would take before someone "blamed all the white people". Page 47, now I know.
     
    • Funny x 1
  9. kort677

    kort677 Banned

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    there's always becoming a musician, movie star, drug dealer, sports star or hedge fund manager
     
  10. Max*

    Max* Charging

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    One of those things is not like the others!
     
  11. kort677

    kort677 Banned

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    not in everyone's eyes :confused:
     
  12. MikeQ

    MikeQ Member

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    From what I've seen, you can give people access to a free and exemplary education and they will take little advantage of it.

    Both my kids went to middle school and one goes to high school in some of the poorest neighborhoods in my area. We have magnet schools here that get Masters and PHD's in education as teachers, funding far beyond what you'd get in my middle class neighborhood and access to programs that you usually see in college. The middle school my kids went to had an aviation science program. They had a NASA simulator and the kids left the program knowing enough to pass the FAA exam. There were also engineering, pre-med and numerous other programs that could put any kid on a path to a great career. Busing from anywhere in the county is provided and anyone can go to the school. The kids who are zoned for this school would come from the surrounding neighborhood which is predominantly poor and black. The magnet middle school has a matching high school so if you went to say the Engineering Magnet Middle School, when you graduated you could progress to an Engineering Magnet HIgh School. There are also magnet schools for other disciplines such as Finance, International Business, etc.. It's not just STEM. Most of the high schools have a dual enrollment program so you can earn college credit while taking classes in high school.

    The majority of the kids in magnet programs at these schools come from middle to upper middle neighborhoods, not the surrounding neighborhoods. To me it clearly shows that providing opportunity isn't working. The problem originates at home. Again, my wife is a teacher so this is something that routinely gets hammered into me. If the parents aren't deeply involved with the child and instilling in them the seriousness of an education then all the money and services aren't going to make any difference.
     
  13. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    I think this thread has (long ago probably) gone off the deep end. it's overtly political anyway and I've had to snip enough posts that it's just not returning enough value to be worth keeping open. Closing the thread. Please don't open a new one.
     
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