When will we have a Basic Minimum Income?

[mspohr]

Yes and... I do not think it is entirely human nature to be destructively greedy. Have to remember that for most of man's existence, he operated within tribes in which individual members had to be dispensable... it was all about the tribe. The culture of individualism and individual greed is relatively new. This should give us some hope that man can adapt and change. But he has built such potent destructive power that he may well off himself first.

The essence of the tribe was that it was a group of people who banded together to help each other survive. Tribe members were not "dispensable" ( expendable) but each was considered as vital to the survival of the tribe. The young as well as the old were valued and cared for.
I agree that individualism and greed came about later and some attribute this to the rise of agriculture where an individual could accumulate surplus wealth. Some in this thread with a Calvinist view of the world have used "greed" to refer to those accepting welfare but it's hard for me to think of a person scraping by on food stamps as greedy.
To me, greed is someone who pursues wealth relentlessly in spite of having "enough". These people are self-centered and willing to do anything to accumulate more wealth and power. They are psychopaths. I think our so-called president falls in this category. He has pursued wealth in spite of being gifted a tidy nest egg. In this pursuit, he has shown no empathy for those he has scammed and cheated... the very definition of a psychopath. Corporations also exhibit psychopathic behavior along with most of their CEOs (and CEO wannabes).
Beyond the tribe, the next stage of human evolution was the ability to understand abstract ideas. This allowed the development of religion, nations, political movements, etc . These ideologies allowed humans to progress beyond 100 person tribes to much larger groups united behind the ideology. Some still cling to the Calvinist ideal, others have a more socialist view.
So... the current "gotcha" question of this thread is something along the lines of "would you give up your yacht, etc. to help others." My answer is that the society should ensure that those who did not have the good fortune of a lucky birth and opportunities will have their basic needs met without and "means test" or moral judgement. If this means that fewer yachts are purchased, that's not a bad thing.

 

[tomas]

**exposed**

Let's be clear. You know nothing about me, what I do, or my intentions. So, you are guessing... and with ill will. You called me a hypocrite based upon the evidence of a bulletin board profile listing of my residence. This is typical of your inflammatory posting style. Negative, dig, dig, dig. Ironically, in threads about Tesla cars (rather than policy/sociology/political threads), I've actually "liked" some of your positive or informational posts. I'm sure you will have some kind of "cute" comeback to this. My last post in this exchange though.

 

[PJFW8]

The essence of the tribe was that it was a group of people who banded together to help each other survive. Tribe members were not "dispensable" ( expendable) but each was considered as vital to the survival of the tribe. The young as well as the old were valued and cared for.
I agree that individualism and greed came about later and some attribute this to the rise of agriculture where an individual could accumulate surplus wealth. Some in this thread with a Calvinist view of the world have used "greed" to refer to those accepting welfare but it's hard for me to think of a person scraping by on food stamps as greedy.
To me, greed is someone who pursues wealth relentlessly in spite of having "enough". These people are self-centered and willing to do anything to accumulate more wealth and power. They are psychopaths. I think our so-called president falls in this category. He has pursued wealth in spite of being gifted a tidy nest egg. In this pursuit, he has shown no empathy for those he has scammed and cheated... the very definition of a psychopath. Corporations also exhibit psychopathic behavior along with most of their CEOs (and CEO wannabes).
Beyond the tribe, the next stage of human evolution was the ability to understand abstract ideas. This allowed the development of religion, nations, political movements, etc . These ideologies allowed humans to progress beyond 100 person tribes to much larger groups united behind the ideology. Some still cling to the Calvinist ideal, others have a more socialist view.
So... the current "gotcha" question of this thread is something along the lines of "would you give up your yacht, etc. to help others." My answer is that the society should ensure that those who did not have the good fortune of a lucky birth and opportunities will have their basic needs met without and "means test" or moral judgement. If this means that fewer yachts are purchased, that's not a bad thing.

This kind of thinking has lead to Mao's cultural revolution, Pol Pot ant he death of millions, This is not the forum for utopian nonsense.

 

[mspohr]

This kind of thinking has lead to Mao's cultural revolution, Pol Pot ant he death of millions, This is not the forum for utopian nonsense.

Not sure what you mean by "this kind of thinking" but it's kind of a stretch to go from democratic socialism to Pol Pot in one sentence.
You might want to read this article I posted earlier to get a little perspective:
Basic Income — Musk Likes It, Who Else?
It's a long read but very informative. It might be too long for you but give it a try.

 

[PJFW8]

Not sure what you mean by "this kind of thinking" but it's kind of a stretch to go from democratic socialism to Pol Pot in one sentence.
You might want to read this article I posted earlier to get a little perspective:
Basic Income — Musk Likes It, Who Else?
It's a long read but very informative. It might be too long for you but give it a try.

Yours is simply an old (from 1870's German socialism) idea that has failed the test of time. It is a post- romantic notion. Excuse me, my objection it's not to your thought process but to its inclusion on the Tesla site. A more appropriate forum would be a college political philosophy site. We used to argue this point for hours. Brings me back to my college days. I promise not to post again on this topic.

 

[mspohr]

Yours is simply an old (from 1870's German socialism) idea that has failed the test of time. It is a post- romantic notion.

I appreciate being called romantic (even post-romantic) but your generalizations don't really tell me anything.
Please explain how we get from 1870 German socialism to Pol Pot.
I can understand the fear and greed of Trumpism but it seems to me that it is a reaction to socialism popular with the willfully ignorant, not a descendant of socialism. I can see Trumpism devolving into Pol Pot in the same way that earlier fascist regimes devolved but they all failed spectacularly.

 

[McRat]

I appreciate being called romantic (even post-romantic) but your generalizations don't really tell me anything.
Please explain how we get from 1870 German socialism to Pol Pot.
I can understand the fear and greed of Trumpism but it seems to me that it is a reaction to socialism popular with the willfully ignorant, not a descendant of socialism. I can see Trumpism devolving into Pol Pot in the same way that earlier fascist regimes devolved but they all failed spectacularly.

Romantic does not mean what you think it does in that context.

 

[mspohr]

Romantic does not mean what you think it does in that context.

Duh... In the absence of a more complete explanation of socialism leading to Pol Pot, I'll take romantic to mean whatever I want.

 

[PJFW8]

I appreciate being called romantic (even post-romantic) but your generalizations don't really tell me anything.
Please explain how we get from 1870 German socialism to Pol Pot.
I can understand the fear and greed of Trumpism but it seems to me that it is a reaction to socialism popular with the willfully ignorant, not a descendant of socialism. I can see Trumpism devolving into Pol Pot in the same way that earlier fascist regimes devolved but they all failed spectacularly.

To be clear, I did not vote for Trump. Pol Pot and Mao were "romantics" in that they believed that man's primitive nature was corrupted by learning and technology. Doctors, engineers, lawyers and professors ... the entire intelligentsia corrupted the original innocent and pure state of mankind. This philosophy underpinned the early socialist ideas of the German liberal philosophy of the 1870's. We debated these endlessly during my schooling in philosophy and political science. I'm sorry I brought it up. It's time to get back to Tesla!

 

[kort677]

To be clear, I did not vote for Trump. Pol Pot and Mao were "romantics" in that they believed that man's primitive nature was corrupted by learning and technology. Doctors, engineers, lawyers and professors ... the entire intelligentsia corrupted the original innocent and pure state of mankind. This philosophy underpinned the early socialist ideas of the German liberal philosophy of the 1870's. We debated these endlessly during my schooling in philosophy and political science. I'm sorry I brought it up. It's time to get back to Tesla!

so lets depopulate, devolve back a few thousand years and all become nomadic tribesmen. thanks but not for me, I am ok with modernity, flaws and all.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

To be clear, I did not vote for Trump. Pol Pot and Mao were "romantics" in that they believed that man's primitive nature was corrupted by learning and technology. Doctors, engineers, lawyers and professors ... the entire intelligentsia corrupted the original innocent and pure state of mankind. This philosophy underpinned the early socialist ideas of the German liberal philosophy of the 1870's. We debated these endlessly during my schooling in philosophy and political science. I'm sorry I brought it up. It's time to get back to Tesla!

so lets depopulate, devolve back a few thousand years and all become nomadic tribesmen. thanks but not for me, I am ok with modernity, flaws and all.

I have long believed something of the opposite: that the primitive nature of humans has prevented optimal use of learning and technology. Our primitive nature holds us back. Evolution isn't fast enough to keep up with the civilization we've created.

Our biological structures betray us in numerous ways. One example: the instinct of people is to eat anything. Put free food out in any office... and it will be gone very quickly. People will eat any kind of junk food simply because it is available, and the stone age brain is programmed to eat while fuel is available. Never mind that most of the garbage from the industrial food machine will push many people towards obesity and Type 2 diabetes. Another example: the backfire effect. Even when confronted with facts or strong evidence, such as with regards to Climate Change, people who believe the opposite will have their incorrect beliefs reinforced rather than reversed.

When I look past the revolution of AI and robotics manufacturing, I see the final step as re-engineering ourselves. Rather than devolving several Millennia, evolution needs to be accelerated by a few Million years and fused with cybernetics. Interestingly, something similar was referenced in last week's episode of the Syfy series 'The Expanse', with regards to the suitability of the human body to space travel and living in space. I will post no spoilers!

 

[tomas]

so lets depopulate, devolve back a few thousand years and all become nomadic tribesmen. thanks but not for me, I am ok with modernity, flaws and all.

So... i actually agree. You cannot go backwards and erase history. As the Islamic extremists want to do. Just hoping we can return to some more positive values to guide our use of technology.

 

[Canuck]

Excuse me, my objection it's not to your thought process but to its inclusion on the Tesla site.

This Tesla site has an "Off Topic" section, which is where we are now. This section need not deal with Tesla so there's no need to object to anything posted here on the basis that it does not deal with Tesla.

I'm sorry I brought it up. It's time to get back to Tesla!

Again, we are in the "Off Topic" section -- you can go to the other sections anytime to get back to Tesla. You also don't need to return here if you only want to talk Tesla. I like the fact that this forum allows us to discuss things other than Tesla. It also makes sense to me since Tesla is not just a car, so TMC should not just be a car forum, at least in my view.

so lets depopulate, devolve back a few thousand years and all become nomadic tribesmen. thanks but not for me, I am ok with modernity, flaws and all.

I thought the same until I recently read this book. I'm not sure it actually changed my position, but it did give me a different perspective on the history of humans, and it also gave me different perspective on life in general. I highly recommend it.

 

[ohmman]

Listen. There's nothing bad about going back in time to homo erectus. I'm just sayin'.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Elon said something today that is not quite the same, but along the same lines as what I've been saying: Elon Musk: Humans must merge with machines or become irrelevant in AI age

The Tesla and SpaceX CEO said on Monday that humans need to merge with machines to become a sort of cyborg.

"Over time I think we will probably see a closer merger of biological intelligence and digital intelligence," Musk told an audience at the World Government Summit in Dubai, where he also launched Tesla in the United Arab Emirates (UAE).

"It's mostly about the bandwidth, the speed of the connection between your brain and the digital version of yourself, particularly output."

"Some high bandwidth interface to the brain will be something that helps achieve a symbiosis between human and machine intelligence and maybe solves the control problem and the usefulness problem," Musk explained.

Humans are not evolving quickly enough to keep up with the overall system we have collectively created.

 

[ohmman]

Listen. There's nothing bad about going back in time to homo erectus. I'm just sayin'.

haha. I just saw this. Someone doesn't know what my avatar is, maybe?

 

[nwdiver]

Humans are not evolving quickly enough to keep up with the overall system we have collectively created.

It's a cultural evolution. Not biological. I think that if we can go from viewing owning people as acceptable to beyond deplorable in ~200 years we can probably adapt to the idea of maintaining a consumer base as the requirements for labour evaporates.

I love how most people are ok with the idea of people not having to work because they are born into the right family but suddenly have deep ideological objections when it comes to keeping the economy moving as less labour is required.... odd.

 

[muleferg]

Just received my 2 3 and me DNA test.I got a lot of Neanderthal in me. My great, great ,great grate grandfather from Scotland

 

[kort677]

How To Catch Wild Pigs
A Lesson In Socialism

You can catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods where wild pigs frequent and placing an adequate amount of corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the area where they are used to coming. When they get used to the section of fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that small change in environment and start to eat again. You continue this process until you have all four sides of the fence up, with a gate in the last side. The pigs, which are used to eating the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat. When you see that they all are peacefully eating the free corn, you slam the gate shut on them and catch the whole herd.
Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. They eventually accept their situation and soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are now owned. They are not free to do what they used to be able to do.
That is exactly what is happening to America. The government keeps pushing us toward Communist and Socialist values and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. In other words, they are increasing the population's dependence on the government's handouts and we as a society continue to lose our freedoms, independence, and self-sufficiency, just a little at a time with every entitlement and "Free" program that is implemented and accepted as normal.
There is always someone that is willing to take your freedom and independence if you are willing to give them control of your freedom and independence. Over the centuries, many people have died trying to secure freedom and today there are so many that are willing to surrender their freedoms without giving it a second thought. It is nothing different than becoming addicted to drugs. The suppliers of these substances own you... and you have to do what they say.
One should always remember "There is no such thing as a Free Lunch!", "Nobody provides something of value without getting something in return.", and "Any entitlement the government gives you, they control and they can take away as they see fit." Someone is going to pay for it now and eventually everyone is going to end up paying for it later. And when you rely on someone else to take care of it, it will be very expensive and will probably not be done as well as it could have been because you will have to do what they say and take what they decide to give you.

 

[Branzo90D]

How To Catch Wild Pigs
A Lesson In Socialism

You can catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods where wild pigs frequent and placing an adequate amount of corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the area where they are used to coming. When they get used to the section of fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that small change in environment and start to eat again. You continue this process until you have all four sides of the fence up, with a gate in the last side. The pigs, which are used to eating the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat. When you see that they all are peacefully eating the free corn, you slam the gate shut on them and catch the whole herd.
Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. They eventually accept their situation and soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are now owned. They are not free to do what they used to be able to do.
That is exactly what is happening to America. The government keeps pushing us toward Communist and Socialist values and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. In other words, they are increasing the population's dependence on the government's handouts and we as a society continue to lose our freedoms, independence, and self-sufficiency, just a little at a time with every entitlement and "Free" program that is implemented and accepted as normal.
There is always someone that is willing to take your freedom and independence if you are willing to give them control of your freedom and independence. Over the centuries, many people have died trying to secure freedom and today there are so many that are willing to surrender their freedoms without giving it a second thought. It is nothing different than becoming addicted to drugs. The suppliers of these substances own you... and you have to do what they say.
One should always remember "There is no such thing as a Free Lunch!", "Nobody provides something of value without getting something in return.", and "Any entitlement the government gives you, they control and they can take away as they see fit." Someone is going to pay for it now and eventually everyone is going to end up paying for it later. And when you rely on someone else to take care of it, it will be very expensive and will probably not be done as well as it could have been because you will have to do what they say and take what they decide to give you.

One usually gives credit to the original author when "cutting and pasting" something into a forum. Perhaps you might do so in the future as this might avoid plagiarism.