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When will we have a Basic Minimum Income?

When will we (The US) have a Basic Minimum income?

  • Never. Have you seen Elysium? Yeah... get ready.

    Votes: 76 53.9%
  • ~5 years

    Votes: 5 3.5%
  • ~10 years

    Votes: 6 4.3%
  • ~20 years

    Votes: 27 19.1%
  • ~40 years

    Votes: 17 12.1%
  • >100 years

    Votes: 10 7.1%

  • Total voters
    141
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Not the same. Arguably similar, but definitely not the same.

EIC is a tax credit, therefore has a reliance upon income (by design, hence the name). This is counter to what this entire thread is about, which is supply outpacing demand.

A small nit to pick regarding the Earned Income Credit. This credit is based upon a person's earned income. Earned income is any income that is subject to FICA; that is, W-2 wages and any self employment income in a person's trade or business. Moreover, it is generally only available if the taxpayer has dependents. (There are some narrow exceptions, but this is the general rule.)

In other words, two different taxpayers each makes $30,000. Each has two dependents. Taxpayer A works for wages and receives a W-2. Taxpayer B owns rental real estate and collects on an installment note. Taxpayer A would receive the EITC, while taxpayer B would not.

Now, back on topic: My concern is that people always have opportunities to grow their income for many different reasons. Most will increase their spending in some proportion to their increased earnings. Retired people on more of a fixed income do not. They do not want to outlive their retirement funds. I have seen this with some of my geriatric clients. I really doubt that any sort of Basic Income will allow for more than a parsimonious COLA every so many years. This is not a way to stimulate an economy. I think that economies that rely too heavily on fixed income recipients will just implode.

A second concern of mine is that many of these theories might possibly work in a relatively small population base. Perhaps countries with small populations would find a method that is sustainable. But we have over 330 million people here in the US of A. I struggled mightily in economics, but I did come away with an understanding that there is microeconomics, macroeconomics and then mega-super-macroeconomics. Can a program like this be feasible with so darn many people not working and contributing?
 
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A small nit to pick regarding the Earned Income Credit. This credit is based upon a person's earned income. Earned income is any income that is subject to FICA; that is, W-2 wages and any self employment income in a person's trade or business. Moreover, it is generally only available if the taxpayer has dependents. (There are some narrow exceptions, but this is the general rule.)

In other words, two different taxpayers each makes $30,000. Each has two dependents. Taxpayer A works for wages and receives a W-2. Taxpayer B owns rental real estate and collects on an installment note. Taxpayer A would receive the EITC, while taxpayer B would not.

Now, back on topic: My concern is that people always have opportunities to grow their income for many different reasons. Most will increase their spending in some proportion to their increased earnings. Retired people on more of a fixed income do not. They do not want to outlive their retirement funds. I have seen this with some of my geriatric clients. I really doubt that any sort of Basic Income will allow for more than a parsimonious COLA every so many years. This is not a way to stimulate an economy. I think that economies that rely too heavily on fixed income recipients will just implode.

A second concern of mine is that many of these theories might possibly work in a relatively small population base. Perhaps countries with small populations would find a method that is sustainable. But we have over 330 million people here in the US of A. I struggled mightily in economics, but I did come away with an understanding that there is microeconomics, macroeconomics and then mega-super-macroeconomics. Can a program like this be feasible with so darn many people not working and contributing?
Giving money to people (especially poor people) will stimulate the economy regardless of amount. The more you give, the more it stimulates the economy.
The size of the population is irrelevant. Small populations have smaller needs and a smaller base to raise revenue. Larger populations have larger needs and a larger base from which to raise revenue. It's linear.
 
My concern is that people always have opportunities to grow their income for many different reasons.
Your entire post was interesting, but I just want to point out that this statement puts your argument in the "labor supply will never meet demand" because demand is ever changing and growing. You're not alone, I see that from many contributors here. I think if we're saying that, it's a completely different discussion.

What I'm trying to revolve my part of the discussion around is this - what if we cannot keep innovating and creating new ways to make money once we've automated all production? Or at least, we cannot make enough money to completely cover our living expenses? Is there another good solution? I feel similar to Elon in the video I posted - "it's not what I wish," but I don't see another reasonable way to solve it.
 
Your entire post was interesting, but I just want to point out that this statement puts your argument in the "labor supply will never meet demand" because demand is ever changing and growing. You're not alone, I see that from many contributors here. I think if we're saying that, it's a completely different discussion.

What I'm trying to revolve my part of the discussion around is this - what if we cannot keep innovating and creating new ways to make money once we've automated all production? Or at least, we cannot make enough money to completely cover our living expenses? Is there another good solution? I feel similar to Elon in the video I posted - "it's not what I wish," but I don't see another reasonable way to solve it.

I do not think that there is a good solution that will please most of the people most of the time. We do not want the government owning all the capital in the country. That has been tried before elsewhere, and it failed miserably.

I am not trying to turn this into a political diatribe, but I think President You-Know-Who thinks that this day is coming sooner than we think. Hence his campaign slogan to "Make America Great Again." His Occam's Razor approach by limiting immigrant workers, lowering taxes, downsizing government and eliminating government regulations and restrictions will somehow transform us back to those halcyon days of post WWII. He is just kicking the can down the road. Labor is almost always the greatest cost that businesses have. And businesses are always seeking ways to cut costs.

That said, do we force companies to be smaller? Do we prohibit mergers and acquisitions? Instead of GM manufacturing Chevy, Cadillac, GMC, Buick do we break them into four companies? Do we prohibit vertical integration? Can an almond farmer own an almond packing facility? Would more companies in business translate into a stronger economy with more and better employment opportunities, regardless of the degree of automation?

But for now, I will get back to what I do best--it is mid February, after all, and people are beating multiple paths to my door.
 
We do not want the government owning all the capital in the country. That has been tried before elsewhere, and it failed miserably.

There's an important distinction between publicly elected officials owning most of the capital (socialism) and controlling most of the capital (communism).

Most of my co-workers are Trump supporters and constantly bash government bureaucracy. The ironic part is that our company is 100% owned by 3 governments. Without initial government funding we wouldn't exist. Some of the most profitable companies in the world are government owned but privately operated.
 
"Industrial Revolution Comparisons Aren't Comforting"

“Why should it be different this time?” That’s the most common response I hear when I raise concerns about automation and the future of jobs, and it’s a pretty simple rejoinder. The Western world managed the shift out of agricultural jobs into industry, and continued to see economic growth. So will not the jobs being displaced now by automation and artificial intelligence lead to new jobs elsewhere in a broadly similar and beneficial manner? Will not the former truck drivers, displaced by self-driving vehicles, find work caring for the elderly or maybe fixing or programming the new modes of transport?

As economics, that may well be correct, but as history it’s missing some central problems. The shift out of agricultural jobs, while eventually a boon for virtually all of humanity, brought significant problems along the way. This time probably won’t be different, and that’s exactly why we should be concerned.

Consider, for instance, the history of wages during the Industrial Revolution. Estimates vary, but it is common to treat the Industrial Revolution as starting around 1760, at least in Britain. If we consider estimates for private per capita consumption, from 1760 to 1831, that variable rose only by about 22 percent. That’s not much for a 71-year period. A lot of new wealth was being created, but economic turmoil and adjustment costs and war kept down the returns to labor. (If you’re wondering, “Don’t fight a major war” is the big policy lesson from this period, but also note that the setting for labor market adjustments is never ideal.)

By the estimates of Gregory Clark, economic historian at the University of California at Davis, English real wages may have fallen about 10 percent from 1770 to 1810, a 40-year period. Clark also estimates that it took 60 to 70 years of transition, after the onset of industrialization, for English workers to see sustained real wage gains at all.

If we imagine the contemporary U.S. experiencing similar wage patterns, most of us would expect political trouble, and hardly anyone would call that a successful transition. Yet that may be the track we are on. Median household income is down since 1999, and by some accounts median male wages were higher in 1969 than today. The more pessimistic of those estimates are the subject of contentious debate (are we really adjusting for inflation properly?), but the very fact that the numbers are capable of yielding such gloomy results suggests transition costs are higher than many economists like to think.

Industrialization, and the decline of the older jobs in agriculture and the crafts economy, also had some pernicious effects on social ideas. The early to mid-19th century saw the rise of socialist ideologies, largely as a response to economic disruptions. Whatever mistakes Karl Marx made, he was a keen observer of the Industrial Revolution, and there is a reason he became so influential. He failed to see the long-run ability of capitalism to raise living standards significantly, but he understood and vividly described the transition costs and the economic volatility.

Western economies later turned to variants of the social welfare state, but along the way the intellectual currents of the 19th century produced a lot of overreaction in other, more destructive directions. The ideas of Marx fed into the movements behind the Soviet Union, Communist China and the Khmer Rouge. Arguably, fascist doctrine also was in part a response to the disruptions of industrialization in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

I like to think we will be more intellectually moderate this time around, but the political developments of the last few years, and the observed global tilt toward the authoritarian, are hardly reassuring.

The shift of jobs away from agriculture also poisoned economic policy. Typically the U.S. government spends more than $20 billion a year subsidizing farmers, even though virtually all economists think those expenditures are wasteful. The European Union is worse yet. Although Europe has pressing problems with bank solvency, Italian and Greek debt, and refugees, an estimated 38 percent of the EU budget will be going to farm subsidies. Farms as a share of total employment are quite small (about 2 percent), but farmers as an interest group have not gone away, even hundreds of years after agricultural employment started to decline.

It is possible a similar logic may play out with the jobs that will be rendered obsolete by automation. That is, we may decide to subsidize and protect those jobs for centuries to come, to the detriment of long-run economic growth.

When it comes to automation, my all-things-considered view is still “full steam ahead,” and I might have felt the same way and bit the same bullet, had I been alive in the late 18th century. But invoking the Industrial Revolution today is not going to ease my worries.
 
Robots Will Soon Do Your Taxes. Bye-Bye, Accounting Jobs

I've been doing my own taxes form some years using Intuit's TurboTax, so this transition has to have already begun. I wonder what the trend line is for H&R Block employment. So you'll be able to take a picture of your W-2, 1099, etc. on your phone and file directly with one of the tax prep companies with no human interaction at all and not much input. Your phone app will ask the appropriate questions. It won't be long until whole accounting departments will be reduced to a liaison and an AI.

Bankers
Accountants
Truck, bus, delivery van, taxi drivers
Travel agents
Postal workers
Warehouse workers

Going quickly!
 
Robots Will Soon Do Your Taxes. Bye-Bye, Accounting Jobs

I've been doing my own taxes form some years using Intuit's TurboTax, so this transition has to have already begun. I wonder what the trend line is for H&R Block employment. So you'll be able to take a picture of your W-2, 1099, etc. on your phone and file directly with one of the tax prep companies with no human interaction at all and not much input. Your phone app will ask the appropriate questions. It won't be long until whole accounting departments will be reduced to a liaison and an AI.

Bankers
Accountants
Truck, bus, delivery van, taxi drivers
Travel agents
Postal workers
Warehouse workers

Going quickly!
I wouldn't count on all accountants going away anytime soon. Sure, if all you have is a W-2 you can easily file your own taxes with a photo from your phone, but if you're taxes involve rentals, business income, investments, etc. it gets harder.

That being said, I still do my own taxes, but it's not a click-and-file approach.



And HR Block, etc. don't hire accountants, not that I know of, to fill in the tax work. Isn't it usually some high school kid, who punches in the numbers for you? And if you have issues, then you can talk to an accountant?
 
So I've been thinking....what about traveling when most of us do not need to work......would UBI allow for people to save enough to travel or would we be confined to the area we live in? Having all the free time would allow for more us to explore the world and what better way to learn than through traveling?
 
So I've been thinking....what about traveling when most of us do not need to work......would UBI allow for people to save enough to travel or would we be confined to the area we live in? Having all the free time would allow for more us to explore the world and what better way to learn than through traveling?
Only if traveling is a basic necessity like shelter, food and water ;).

You know universal basic income.
 
haha, true, but the term basic could mean different values for different countries, unless the whole world agrees on one set value.....
I'm sorry, but I don't know of any countries where traveling would be considered a basic necessity.

Also, while I enjoy traveling, not everyone does. 99.9% of people enjoys shelter, food and water.
 
hmm...so no more traveling in the future....good to note. Check another industry out of commission.
To be fair, look around? People living in the bottom 20% don't do much traveling. People in the top 20% do (if they want to).

BMI would primarily apply to the bottom (yes everyone would get it, yes the people at the top could then take more risks with it, but BMI would be crucial for the bottom).


So I'm not sure that analogy applies.
 
To be fair, look around? People living in the bottom 20% don't do much traveling. People in the top 20% do (if they want to).

BMI would primarily apply to the bottom (yes everyone would get it, yes the people at the top could then take more risks with it, but BMI would be crucial for the bottom).


So I'm not sure that analogy applies.
I get that. To be honest, I was already discarding the bottom 20% because there will always be some portion in the lower ranking. I was thinking more about the large percentage that have normal jobs now that will be out of work.
 
15 pages in
To be fair, look around? People living in the bottom 20% don't do much traveling. People in the top 20% do (if they want to).

BMI would primarily apply to the bottom (yes everyone would get it, yes the people at the top could then take more risks with it, but BMI would be crucial for the bottom).


So I'm not sure that analogy applies.
ok so now I'm totally hating all this BMI. Starting to sound like welfare, and now we are talking about "top" and "bottom" 20%? I thought the exam question was more like 50% non employed! I thought it was more to be viewed as a thechnology dividend. If you could afford (via family wealth or frugal lifestyle) to live your lifestyle on the dividend, have at it. If you want more, better learn an in demand skill, be prepared to move to the jobs, face the competition, and sacrifice lifestyle. Then there are people who would LIKE to have wealthier lifestyle, but have neither the skills, mobility, or family wealth to attain. I guess they must live a reduced lifestyle limited by BMI. So we have the haves and have lesses vs haves and have nots. Don't love it. Still wishing for a better answer.
 
The following is just my thoughts on this, Something For Nothing movement, and since I am but one and no can say what a person should settle for in income.

-Stay or move on & seek new income-

Right now, there is a movement of people that want to start a ‘Entitlement’ Income. These people are basing this on their assumption that we will have an over abundance of workers with no available jobs.

All due to robotics and Artificial Intelligence, Etc.

I do not for a minute, believe in something for nothing. If we adhere to their philosophy of ENTITLEMENT, we would still be paying wages to those who were displaced when we did away with the horse and buggy era.

There will always be a place on this earth for good, earnest labors.

When you vote for your income, you deserve the government you receive.

In my learnings, I have seen people who feel that their quality of life is enhanced by sitting on their asses waiting for someone else to do the heavy lifting for them. In their opinions, they are too valuable to waste their time on such menial work. Huh? Such menial work is beneath them.

They are destined & entitled to Greatness, or the next public demonstration , Ha, who is hand feeding them this crock?

Pay you to breath, – Pay to Play, I only wish.
I wish I had a nickel for the times when some of the unenlightened would tell me that I had it made and I didn't understand their plight.
They would follow that up with, "I wish I had your job". Of course, they implied - ONLY IF THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO WORK FOR IT!
The old adage of “Idle Hands are the devil’s workshop”, & weak minds does comes to mind here.

Remember those you knew in school who were the popular kids, Where are they now? I don’t remember every seeing a one of them amounting to much. Some did go on to starting public forums, charitable funds and such, WHICH, depended on using someone else’s dollars. Leeches.
Yet they are quick to advise YOU on how to donate You Money, & how You need to work longer and work more.
They need your contributions.

In all fairness, some did pull their heads out and did accomplish meaningful life’s, but if you check, it wasn’t accomplished because someone was sending them an unearned income.

LIFE is NOT a REALITY SHOW! It is for LIVING.

Too many people are nothing more than Peeping Tom slugs, sitting around wanting ME to support them and THEIR NOBLE Habits, & causes, right?. Bah!

Since this isn’t a clear cut case of how we should treat each and every situation,
I will only listen to you and your ideas, if you can show me the tangible fruits of your efforts & labors.
Well, now that makes ME feel better,,,,,,
 
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