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Where are the sub $20k EV's??? 150kW Charging?

eyedrop

Member
Jan 18, 2018
168
153
Prescott AZ
200+ mi range EV's are basically the new standard.

The question is, where are all the el cheapo econobox stripped down EV's?

I mean, there is the $28k Leaf with 150mi range with a few high-tech features and decent build quality.. But It seems like sub $20k EV's would be possible if they were totally stripped down and had low capacity batteries. Tiny, low weight, no fancy features, crank windows, cheap materials, no sound dampening. Something like a Mitsubishi Mirage EV or Nissan Versa EV....

Also, I think if DC fast charging stations were as ubiquitous as gas stations, 100mi range wouldnt be much of a problem. Its not like you hear motorcycle riders complaining about their small gas tanks. Gas stations are everywhere and refueling takes only a few minutes. So having only 100-150mi range is not even an issue if the infrastructure was there.

I would gladly take 5 minute charging times and low range over some massive, expensive battery pack waiting for hours to recharge.

What are your thoughts on this segment of true econobox EV's with sub 24kwh capacity and DCFC? Is there a market for them? Why haven't any been announced? Why do manufacturers insist on emphasizing range? And why are 150kW+ CCS charging stations still not a thing in 2018?

Around these parts, you will get up to 50kW CCS IF your lucky, and IF the station is even working. And while there are many in major cities, there are almost none along major highways.... By the time 2020 rolls around, it will be too late for big auto. I really think Tesla will have the market cornered while everyone else is scrambling to play catch up...
 
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RobStark

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2013
10,934
57,624
Los Angeles, USA
i-MiEV did not sell very well.

Crank windows are no cheaper today than power windows because of economy of scale.

Small gas tanks don't matter much when you get 50-80 MPG in a motorcycle.

There is no profitable market for such vehicles in industrialized countries.

Basically only China has all the ingredients necessary for cheap low end EVs.

Virtually every other developing country doesn't have the grid to support a shift to mass market EVs.
 
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RobStark

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2013
10,934
57,624
Los Angeles, USA
A Honda Gold Wing will get you 35 MPG on a 6.6 Gallon Tank. That gives you a comfortable SR Model 3 range.

A Harley Davidson FLTRU Road Glide Ultra will get you 28 MPG on a 6.6 gallon tank.

Harley Davidson FLHX Street Glide gets you 60 MPG on 5 gallon tank. That gets you Model S 100D range.

A Honda Grom will get you 100+ MPG. That gives you 2018 Nissan LEAF range. So will a Kawasaki Z125.
 

ChadS

Last tank of gas: March 2009
Jul 16, 2009
3,381
2,824
Redmond, WA
Vehicle prices depend on more than equipment levels. The development costs for launching a new vehicle are enormous, and must be amortized over the vehicles sold. Cheap cars are impossible without making cars in volume. And so far, only Tesla and Nissan are even trying to follow a volume car strategy in the US. Both are still ramping up.

For more on this topic, see HERE.

A cheap, low-range car is not likely to sell in high volumes in the US, at least not yet. And why focus there when the higher-margin market is easier and, well, higher margin? Taking away the good part of the market is getting the other manufactures to move sooner. Besides, starting at the high end makes the technology more desirable.

Significantly more infrastructure will also make lower-range vehicles more saleable, but is also difficult, expensive, and anybody that takes the lead either has to do it all on their own with a proprietary solution, or has to take the lead on an open solution and has to spend on behalf of other automakers that lag behind.

We will get there. It just takes time.
 
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Jeff N

Active Member
Oct 31, 2011
2,539
3,915
And why are 150kW+ CCS charging stations still not a thing in 2018?
The new generation of CCS and CHAdeMO 150+ kW charging hardware is just barely beginning to trickle out of the factory. Only part of the new CCS 2 specifications are final and public. These new stations will be a thing in 2018 but not until later in the year.

There have been several announced plans for networks of chargers in Europe and there is a well-funded effort in the US backed by VW dieselgate settlement money. By the summer of next year there should be a nationwide network up and running in the US with average distances between stations of 70 miles — closer spaces surrounding urban areas and up to 120 miles apart in rural areas.

There is new map of the June, 2019 network for the US:

“Secret” highway ultra-fast DC charging map revealed

As for cheap EVs, I expect the market will follow the same path it usually does with new and rapidly changing technology — high end expensive tech will define what is possible and over a few years the prices will plunge as volume ramps up. We’re already seeing this familiar pattern from computing and HD flat LCD panel TVs now happening in the EV space. We’re clearly on the path towards getting cheap 100-150 mile cars but it’s going to take a few more years and volume scaling before we really get there.
 
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McRat

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2016
5,771
6,077
LA
50-80 mpg on a motorcycle? HA. My ZX14 got 35 if I was lucky with a 5 gallon tank. Cruisers and Harleys are even worse with smaller tanks. Op is correct about the motorcycle point.

My tricked out CB500X (1 of a kind custom long travel, I dyno tuned it from idle to past redline, exhaust/intake, armored, off-road tires) gets >65mpg at 70 mph on 87 octane. sitting straight up in the saddle like a parachute. But it's a very efficient engine made more efficient by focusing on a smooth, wider, powercurve. Suspension adjustment test, front:

That's not hypermiling though, I can usually approach 80 mpg if I need to. You don't even think about gas stations for 250 miles unless you are in the dirt. Best tank was 320 miles with lots of room left, it holds almost 5 gallons.

Sidebar, Harleys I've ridden get good miles. Goldwings have a hole in their fuel tank. Jeez they are thirsty. Worst bike was a carb'd stock GS1000 that I did a Full Dress treatment to. 25 mpg commuting. My car got better mileage, but could not split lanes very well. But standing it on it's license plate in 2nd with a max Windjammer, trunk, and hard bags got attention.
 
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McRat

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2016
5,771
6,077
LA
200+ mi range EV's are basically the new standard.

The question is, where are all the el cheapo econobox stripped down EV's?

I mean, there is the $28k Leaf with 150mi range with a few high-tech features and decent build quality.. But It seems like sub $20k EV's would be possible if they were totally stripped down and had low capacity batteries. Tiny, low weight, no fancy features, crank windows, cheap materials, no sound dampening. Something like a Mitsubishi Mirage EV or Nissan Versa EV....

Also, I think if DC fast charging stations were as ubiquitous as gas stations, 100mi range wouldnt be much of a problem. Its not like you hear motorcycle riders complaining about their small gas tanks. Gas stations are everywhere and refueling takes only a few minutes. So having only 100-150mi range is not even an issue if the infrastructure was there.

I would gladly take 5 minute charging times and low range over some massive, expensive battery pack waiting for hours to recharge.

What are your thoughts on this segment of true econobox EV's with sub 24kwh capacity and DCFC? Is there a market for them? Why haven't any been announced? Why do manufacturers insist on emphasizing range? And why are 150kW+ CCS charging stations still not a thing in 2018?

Around these parts, you will get up to 50kW CCS IF your lucky, and IF the station is even working. And while there are many in major cities, there are almost none along major highways.... By the time 2020 rolls around, it will be too late for big auto. I really think Tesla will have the market cornered while everyone else is scrambling to play catch up...

We don't buy them.

Why make a car people don't buy?

Several companies have made cars that were $20k or less after Fed. Under $15k in some states. $79/m lease rates.

Where are those cars now? Still on lots waiting for buyers. In the want ads, 3/4 years old for $9k in great shape, low miles.

If you could get a NHTSA waiver, you could PRODUCE a $35k, 300 mile EV, with seat belts and front airbags. Not going to happen, nor would people buy it. If we don't have power seats, we shiit ourselves even though after you get it set, you often stop using it for more than during car cleaning.
 
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mkspeedr

Member
Jun 14, 2015
824
1,004
Santa Clara, CA
Must not sidetrack thread with motorcycles...must not track motorcycles...must track motorcycles...

FYI - my Ducati 1299 gets about 19 mpg. My truck gets better. My SV650 gets 27-28. My commute 650 Vstrom gets 45.

I don't see a cheap i-MiEV selling well until the charging infrastructure is better. I know a lot of people who cannot charge the EV at their apartment complex. So they buy Honda Fits.
 

Cirrus MS100D

Member
Supporting Member
Jul 6, 2017
689
2,086
Pennsylvania, USA
If you want an EV less than $20k, there are lots of them available used. I checked i3 and e-Golf recently and cars around 3 years and less than 36,000 miles are available under $16k. Fiat 500e cars are available under $10k, but may be more than 3 years old.
Picked up my used 2014 Fiat 500e a few weeks ago for ~$8700 with very low miles. It was definitely a good deal, but they can easily be had for under $10k with low miles (since they can't go that far on a charge anyway haha!)
 

eyedrop

Member
Jan 18, 2018
168
153
Prescott AZ
If Tesla is only pumping 120kw into a 100kwh battery what makes you believe a much smaller batter can take 150?

This raises a good question. Ive read that different battery designs offer different tradeoffs. I once had a flagship smart phone with fast charging. Low capacity battery, very fast charging rate. Im not sure about longevity but Ive heard its about the same as other typical cell phone batteries.

Something tells me that a low capacity battery with very fast charging may be possible. I could see future econobox cars possibly having cheap, light weight, low capacity batteries but still have fast DC Fast charging capability. Liquid cooling would certainly help with longevity.

As I said before, I think the average Joe would stop worrying about EV range if only there were DC fast charging stations on every corner... At that point, long range would be a luxury and not a necessity. This could reduce costs for budget minded consumers and spread EV's faster, rather than automakers insisting on these expensive cars with big batteries and no charging network.

He could then buy something similar to a 1st Nissan Leaf but more stripped down and smaller, for probably a similar MSRP price as a typical 4 banger gas burner such as a Corolla. Bare bones, 24kWH, no sound proofing, no navigation, no heated power seats, etc...

I actually know someone that was looking at a Bolt and was thrilled with the range/price ratio. But then he realized the charging network made long distance road trips totally impractical despite the long range. With a Tesla, the charging is not only faster but placed much more strategically. Finding a CCS station outside of a major city is extremely rare, for whatever reason... Im not sure why they continue to litter Phoenix with them yet ignore the highways going in any direction outside of the city.
 
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