I do not think that locals are THE problem, but a PART of the problem. Even with that, it is the locals that abuse the superchargers, not just use them, something the idle fee is supposed to change (and through anecdotal reports, did at times). If the superchargers are crowded because of insufficient build-out, seeing just one local abusing them makes a difficult problem much worse, and generates an incredible amount of emotions. It is the same as a bunch of people in the express check-out line at the market, only to have someone sneak in with way too many groceries (and the store not having the balls to ask them to move to another line). People are already frustrated with the wait. Having to deal with an inconsiderate person on top of it gets blood boiling.
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Where is the California Supercharger build out?
- Thread starter OCRyan
- Start date
The idle fee isn't about locals. It is about people leaving theirs cars plugged in too long. That has nothing to do with locals. It's people going shopping and to a restaurant while at a Supercharger. Locals who don't really need to charge would never line up at a full supercharger. That would make no sense. When there is a line, it is because there are more cars driving than Superchargers can recharge. The data clearly shows that.
That's the problem here. Emotions. We get super frustrated when we arrive at a full Supercharger. We are angry and jump on finding a culprit. Clearly the Superchargers in densley populated areas will be used by people living in these areas. That doesn't mean they are all abusing them. As I explained, there are many situations where people need to recharge quickly to make their car useful and remain mobile. I easily drive around 150 miles just in LA and OC county in a day and don't have the time to drive home and charge there for hours.
That's the problem here. Emotions. We get super frustrated when we arrive at a full Supercharger. We are angry and jump on finding a culprit. Clearly the Superchargers in densley populated areas will be used by people living in these areas. That doesn't mean they are all abusing them. As I explained, there are many situations where people need to recharge quickly to make their car useful and remain mobile. I easily drive around 150 miles just in LA and OC county in a day and don't have the time to drive home and charge there for hours.
I agree with your general sentiment here, though I actually believe the idle fee was to address both locals abusing the superchargers and those who go shopping, to the movies, etc. Just to be clear, I believe local abuse is defined not as someone who needs to charge for whatever reason, but as someone who lives nearby and regularly drops there car off for the day or night, taking up a space when not needed.
In any case, this thread is not about locals. Locals could be anybody living in Southern California making the trip up and down the coastal corridor. We need a HUGE number of additional stalls, either at the same location or more. SJC was built out several years ago and was severely congested within a single week of its opening. FV followed a year later with the same exact problem. BP and SA were added recently, and are already full (or, in SA's case, just constantly broken). There is no question that the current availability of superchargers in this region is woefully inadequate to meet today's needs. IT NEVER HAS BEEN. Even if it was greatly expanded would it likely be sufficient. Well, maybe if they tripled the amount of stalls. With the 3 coming out soon, even that much would not help, and there will be a lot of unhappy customers, and a lot less forgiving than most of us here who have been the willing test subjects of this new tech.
roblab
Active Member
Sorry to burst your bubble. There are many Tesla owners who bought their cars with the idea (supplied by the salesman) that they could take advantage of free charging at the superchargers. Several I have talked to felt it was a right to drive over to the SC and fill up while they went out to dinner, though they lived 5 miles away. And yes, they stood in line. One local came cruising in and was unaware there was a line, and pulled into where a car was just pulling out.
I have talked to the people in line. It is a rare case where someone wants a charge because they are on a trip. The idea expressed here that people stay too long is more a matter of education. People on a trip only stay long enough to get charge for the next leg, usually around 100 miles. The locals want the car "full" so they don't have to come by as often. And full charge takes over an hour.
The idea that superchargers are for people who might drive 150 miles in a day is silly. This is a case where someone has not planned, or HAS planned to use the SC instead of "spending hours" at home. Everyone who figures the SC is for their simple convenience, because they are more important that someone trying to get down the road while on a trip, is abusing the system, though I know people of this mindset will argue that they deserve to charge for free on an overfull public system because they have special needs - as in they have no ability to figure out their daily driving and don't care about anyone else.
CuriousG
Active Member
I never disputed your 43% number (now it's 45%). What I'm disputing is your 60% number. What I'm asking for is proof where you come up with 60% of Teslas come from California.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
I have interviewed the SC users ... in Northern California, the Bay Area SCs are clogged with locals at all hours 
I just looked through all my comments here. Maybe I missed it. Where did I say 60%?
jelloslug
Active Member
Exactly. When we got our 2013 MS in early 2013 here at work there were almost no Superchargers at all.
Locals often wait in line to charge at Mountain View and Dublin, and from what I've heard, San Mateo Superchargers. I've seen this quite a number of times while I traveled around the SF Bay Area to/from road trips. I think you underestimate the lure of free stuff for certain people who place a different value on their time than most people do.
I'm not denying there are people who like to use their free charge and it's contributing to the problem to a degree. But when it comes to a massive lineup at a Supercharger, very few locals who don't need to charge would wait in line for half an hour to get $4 worth of charge. There might be the occasional idiot, but in the grand scheme of things this is not the root of the problem.
The worst cases of lines were recently in Barstow and several times at Superchargers between LA and SF. There are definitely no locals. Same with San Juan Capistrano. There are just that many people going back and forth between LA and San Diego.
The biggest contributor is the terrible ratio of Teslas vs Supercharger stalls in California. The numbers clearly show that. That's the biggest problem. We will not fix the issue of crowded Superchargers in California by spending all our time and effort on eliminating the smallest contributor. We need to start with the biggest part of the problem. Tesla has already made a big step in the right direction. People now have to pay for Supercharging. That will take care of freeloaders.
Exactly. No one can blame the Tejon Ranch and the Barstow disasters on locals. Both were holiday weekends and resulted in lines over 2 hours long. Both sites have been upgraded since, and two new stations added near Bakersfield. They just need to do the same in So Cal along the 405/5 corridors in both the OC and the San Fernando Valley. The 5/405/101 are the busiest highways in the entire US.
CuriousG
Active Member
I went back to look for it and I can't find it either. I thought it was your original comment where you said nearly half of all Teslas come from CA. I thought that it included a sentence that mentioned it's more like 60% due to out of state drivers which was the whole purpose of arguing the 60% number.
Lets not shift goalposts here. A SC is less effective for long distance trips if it is half full requiring charging from a paired bay. In situations like these, there are indeed locals charging. Also, locals do indeed wait in line for SCs. It is amazing how much free time some retired people have. San Juan Capistrano is notorious for locals charging.
It is amazing how on almost every single thread about superchargers in California, the topic gets focused on locals charging. It seems that everyone in this thread has participated in that discussion elsewhere, if not here too. I am also to blame. Lets stay on topic and talk about what we can do to get Tesla to improve the SC build-out here, or at least, complain about how little they are doing in this area.
cpa
Active Member
I think that there are three discrete situations for Supercharger congestion in California. First, well over half the population in the state is concentrated in the Bay Area and along the coast from Sta. Barbara to San Diego. We have nearly 40 million bodies here. Many of our most popular attractions are within these areas. Residents and non-residents alike drive from SF to LA for any number of reasons. Once they are at their destination, they need to charge. Moreover, many locals take day trips to ball games, beaches, amusement parks and the like, and their round trip might be close to 200 miles. It only makes sense to Supercharge for the trip home just to be safe or to grab a bite to eat while getting some charge. So, Tesla needs to address these continued uses of Superchargers for those who might not "need" a charge but would like some insurance for the drive home.
Second, I have spoken with a handful of owners at Superchargers over the years, and they are blissfully unaware of "generally accepted charging procedures"; meaning, only charge enough plus a buffer to get to your destination or next Supercharger. These folks patiently charge to 95-100% using ICE mentality. Until Tesla can figure out a fool-proof way to communicate to all owners the concept of "just enough plus a modest buffer," there will be continued congestion. Those last 30-50 miles slow down Supercharger turnover.
Third, California's geography and highway routing squeeze a lot of people into one or two routes. Interstates are few: 5, 8, 15, 40 and 80, with 5, 15, 40 and 80 carrying the brunt of the traffic load to reach Oregon, Nevada or Arizona. It is usually much longer to take secondary two-lane highways to get to or from California. All traffic to Vegas or northern Arizona must route through Barstow. All traffic to Phoenix must take Interstate 10, unless coming from San Diego. All traffic to Reno/Tahoe must choose between Interstate 80 or US50, depending upon destination. Tesla needs to address the popularity of these heavily-traveled routes and increase not only charging locations but also stalls at existing locations, if possible.
I would push for another 144-180 Supercharger stalls in Los Angeles and San Diego and 120-150 in the Bay Area to relieve local/commuter/day trip/vacationer usage. I would push for more locations for rural or semi-rural highways like Daggett/Newberry Springs on I40; Bakersfield proper, Tulare/Visalia, Marysville/Yuba City on SR99; Woodland and Redding on I5; and Victorville and Baker on I15 for starters.
Then fix the damn charging application on the touchscreen and give us up-to-the-minute information on Supercharger usage so we can plan accordingly!
Second, I have spoken with a handful of owners at Superchargers over the years, and they are blissfully unaware of "generally accepted charging procedures"; meaning, only charge enough plus a buffer to get to your destination or next Supercharger. These folks patiently charge to 95-100% using ICE mentality. Until Tesla can figure out a fool-proof way to communicate to all owners the concept of "just enough plus a modest buffer," there will be continued congestion. Those last 30-50 miles slow down Supercharger turnover.
Third, California's geography and highway routing squeeze a lot of people into one or two routes. Interstates are few: 5, 8, 15, 40 and 80, with 5, 15, 40 and 80 carrying the brunt of the traffic load to reach Oregon, Nevada or Arizona. It is usually much longer to take secondary two-lane highways to get to or from California. All traffic to Vegas or northern Arizona must route through Barstow. All traffic to Phoenix must take Interstate 10, unless coming from San Diego. All traffic to Reno/Tahoe must choose between Interstate 80 or US50, depending upon destination. Tesla needs to address the popularity of these heavily-traveled routes and increase not only charging locations but also stalls at existing locations, if possible.
I would push for another 144-180 Supercharger stalls in Los Angeles and San Diego and 120-150 in the Bay Area to relieve local/commuter/day trip/vacationer usage. I would push for more locations for rural or semi-rural highways like Daggett/Newberry Springs on I40; Bakersfield proper, Tulare/Visalia, Marysville/Yuba City on SR99; Woodland and Redding on I5; and Victorville and Baker on I15 for starters.
Then fix the damn charging application on the touchscreen and give us up-to-the-minute information on Supercharger usage so we can plan accordingly!
Another data point. I have been driving back and forth from LA to Phoenix many times. 3 years ago, there was no one else. Today, there are 3 more Superchargers on that route and all of them are fairly busy. Both on weekends and on weekdays. So even though there are 3 more Superchargers, the number of cars has still risen way higher.
EVie'sDad
Member
But to also counter that argument, we now have data in-car about the load at each of the superchargers. Use that and plan accordingly. We took a trip down from the bay area to Southern California this weekend, and were able to skip those superchargers that were more congested for ones that were almost empty. We skipped Gilroy both ways (a popular stop off point) and had no problem getting to gustine, and between harris ranch, buttonwillow and bakersfield, no need to hit tejon ranch.
Seems like if instead of perpetuating the FUD, you learned to better plan your routes, you would be a lot happier and there would be little need to wait in line. Also, as EVs become more ubiquitous, I suspect many more people will charge off the Supercharger grid, at destination, employment or alternate charging locations including their homes. There is no major crunch to get more Superchargers online in the short term, provided the ones already online remain functional, which although speculation abounds, seems to remain as robust as needed for my taste.
Phillip L
Gas Passer
Like in so many things California will be the first one to experience the consequences of a new technological advance. I will be very interested in watching just how the impact of the Model III will be on the Supercharger situation in California since it will impact there much sooner than anywhere else, since the roll out of Model III will occur in California first. You will be the guinea pig we will all be watching.
My point in the original post was that in Southern California and in the Bay Area we are already seeing the impact of too many Teslas and too few Superchargers. If you want to see what the rest of the country will look like, come take a look here. We already have regular lines at a lot of locations. Start in San Diego and drive North on the 5/405, want to stop in San Juan Capistrano, no chance. Okay drive further north on the 405 to Fountain Valley, yeah right.
My concern in the original post here was that these problems are here, right now. Tesla is building out the network strategically for travel across the US and that is fantastic, but the density buildout in California is just not happening. May is around the corner, and still not a single Supercharger permit has been found, construction started, or a new Supercharger opened in 2017. California is Teslas bread and butter, and it seems we are being ignored for now. California is also where the M3 is going to be rolled out first. Imagine the press when thousands of never before EV drivers who don't know better to charge at home (because the new "5 minute delivery" didn't go over that) and the news footage shows dozens of M3's lined up waiting at a Supercharger.
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