Where was Tesla automatic emergency braking in this 60mph crash?

[Tiger]

Tesla Model 3 owner shares insight on vehicle safety after 60 mph crash

Was CR bullied to give back the points? Consumer Reports lowered Tesla’s ratings over concerns about auto braking

 

[Zaphod]

Stop spreading bs on things you know nothing about.
1) you do not have any details on what happened. Zip, zero, nadda.
2) you have no concept of what AEB is and isn't. It is not, and will never be, miraculous and prevent 100% of situations. AEB can't rewrite the laws of physics.

 

[Krypto Kat]

Good Question OP, perhaps you will find someone here who won't bash you and throw insults at you, and give a worthwhile reply with more facts or even an useful informed opinion.

 

[Krypto Kat]

It is not, and will never be, miraculous and prevent 100% of situations.

I wouldn't say never but it is true for now. No need to rewrite the laws of physics, just need to rewrite a few man made laws to get there quicker.

 

[bonnie]

From the Model 3 Owner's Manual:

 

[Zaphod]

Good Question OP, perhaps you will find someone here who won't bash you and throw insults at you, and give a worthwhile reply with more facts or even an useful informed opinion.

Yes, it comes off as bashing, but OP has history of spreading FUD with all things AEB, Autopilot, etc..so yes it does come off harsh, but just telling it like I see it.

 

[Snow Drift]

These systems don't do well with parked objects. They are designed to ignore them most of the time or else every car on the side of the road could cause the system to engage.

Real question: How does a car going 60mph hit a parked car? Cars in the roadway are moving, and if stopped, you need to slow down as you see them from a distance...

 

[apacheguy]

From the Model 3 Owner's Manual:

View attachment 280801​

IMO, you misinterpreted the OP. He is not asking why AEB did not prevent the collision. He is asking why AEB did not reduce the severity of the crash by slowing the vehicle.

The article states the vehicle was traveling 60 mph when it hit a stopped vehicle. Granted, we do not know all the facts here, but I would surmise that if AEB had activated, we would be discussing a 30 mph crash vs a 60 mph crash. Just my 2 cents.

 

[apacheguy]

These systems don't do well with parked objects. They are designed to ignore them most of the time or else every car on the side of the road could cause the system to engage.

Real question: How does a car going 60mph hit a parked car? Cars in the roadway are moving, and if stopped, you need to slow down as you see them from a distance...

Wait, so AEB cannot differentiate between a stationary vehicle on the side of the road vs a stationary vehicle immediately in front of you?

Agree WRT the real question.

 

[TexLaw]

The article states the vehicle was traveling 60 mph when it hit a stopped vehicle. Granted, we do not know all the facts here, but I would surmise that if AEB had activated, we would be discussing a 30 mph crash vs a 60 mph crash. Just my 2 cents.

Everyone is making their own assumptions. You assume that the driver was cruising at 60 mph or thereabouts. Without AEB, we could be talking about a 90 mph crash or a 100 mph one. Granted, you also may be correct.

The point is that there are no details whatsoever in the article regarding what was going on immediately prior to the crash. Assuming such details whether expressly or through implication is dubious and akin to sensationalist, yellow-dog journalism.

 

[LucyferSam]

AEB is still limited to 50mph in the 3 (but not the S or X). It is expected to be activated up to I think 90mph in the near future when the fleet data for the system is complete enough for it to be safe to do so.

 

[Krypto Kat]

These systems don't do well with parked objects. They are designed to ignore them most of the time

Sadly True. Until AI gets better from my limited understanding Stationary objects are all ignored by these not so smart algorithms.

 

[McRat]

Somebody correct me if necessary, but IIRC, the Tesla system is designed to reduce impact velocity by 25 mph. So if the driver was going 60, the impact was at 35mph which puts it into the survival range.

This is the IIHS moderate overlap of the MS60 at 40mph vs a deformable honeycomb:

The IIHS only does small (solid artifact) and moderate offset testing (using an artifact that mimics another car).

This is the full overlap by NHTSA at 35mph:

The damage appears to be consistent with these kinds of speeds.

So perhaps it worked exactly as intended if the driver's original statement of a 60 mph speed was correct.

The theory that 2017+ radar/camera systems cannot ID stopped cars to the front is incorrect based on personal driver's seat experience in other brands both on surface streets and freeways. It works with or without ACC engagement. It works at freeways speeds. It applies brakes to the limits of the ABS system if you ignore the intense warnings. It will even see a car 90° to you as a threat before the car is fully in front of you. Some even work in reverse.

The solution is to pay attention. The trend in driving today is not to. This is why we have AEB today.

 

[gregincal]

AEB is still limited to 50mph in the 3 (but not the S or X). It is expected to be activated up to I think 90mph in the near future when the fleet data for the system is complete enough for it to be safe to do so.

Yes, this. The wrong section of the manual was quoted above. This is the relevant quote from the manual:

Automatic Emergency Braking operates only when driving between approximately 7 mph (10 km/h) and 50 mph (80 km/h).

No mystery whatsoever here. (And as far a stationary objects, I believe that's true for TACC, but not so much for AEB.)

 

[Krypto Kat]

based on personal driver's seat experience in other brands

Oh No no no don't you dare say other brands actually do anything better than a the almighty Tesla.

The solution is to pay attention. The trend in driving today is not to

Which is why I agree with the philosophy that these Autonomous systems don't need to be perfect, just better than humans.

 

[McRat]

Oh No no no don't you dare say other brands actually do anything better than a the almighty Tesla.



Which is why I agree with the philosophy that these Autonomous systems don't need to be perfect, just better than humans.

I avoided going there because I didn't want to stir up a ruckus, but yes, at this stage of the game, Tesla is not leading the pack in AEB technology. The tech exists, but for whatever reason Tesla doesn't have it. Could be IP related. Dunno.

Sadly our tort system works against technology. Engineering 'acceptable' losses vs legal deep pockets could stop systems like AEB some day. If Tesla is 1% at fault, and a drunken driver is 99% at fault, a system known to operate with 99% effectiveness is in serious trouble.

The Feds will have to step in like they did with airbags to provide tort relief. Or a SCOTUS ruling that an engineering effort to save lives does not have to be perfect, just better than average, needs to be put in place.

 

[gregincal]

I avoided going there because I didn't want to stir up a ruckus, but yes, at this stage of the game, Tesla is not leading the pack in AEB technology. The tech exists, but for whatever reason Tesla doesn't have it. Could be IP related. Dunno.

Sadly our tort system works against technology. Engineering 'acceptable' losses vs legal deep pockets could stop systems like AEB some day. If Tesla is 1% at fault, and a drunken driver is 99% at fault, a system known to operate with 99% effectiveness is in serious trouble.

The Feds will have to step in like they did with airbags to provide tort relief. Or a SCOTUS ruling that an engineering effort to save lives does not have to be perfect, just better than average, needs to be put in place.

They're not leading the pack, but they seem to be roughly comparable to what other car companies offer (except the current Model 3 50 mph limit).

 

[DFibRL8R]

Not sure this thread belongs under driving dynamics. I am very interested in the crash but it took me a while to find it here thanks to the OP's choice of focusing on the AEB system.

 

[MikeBur]

I thought this has been discussed a number of times now and in various sections of the 3 manual.

The driver hasn’t posted additional details, and shouldn’t, due to insurance liabilities...

2 most probable scenarios based on information given to date:
1) driving at 60mph using TACC/autopilot and vehicle was stationary, then they would hit at 60mph. Previous examples and explanations exist why, most recently with Tesla/fire engine.

2) driving manually at 60 mph and distracted, AEB would not help due to (current?) inability to operate above 50mph

Both times this appears to be more of a “pilot error” situation, not the vehicle. Could the vehicle get better over time...? Maybe, limited by current hw capability and sw implementation.

 

[Msjulie]

My car doesn't even have autopilot enabled but the other day, someone maneuvered in front of me such that the forward collision warning was activated (it's on medium, I think the default). Even if I had been asleep, that sound would have gotten my attention but quick.

It's odd to think that the AP doesn't have whatever sensors active that that klaxxon-like alert made use of ...