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Whipping a dead horse

PhilRogers

Member
Apr 25, 2020
85
55
Chicago
I know that's what many on this forum will say I am doing. But I have now had my car (SR+) for 3 months. I love it, but I am not enjoying it, because I just worry constantly about the fact that my range is so low. There is no other way to assess it. It's low.

Let me explain.

As you can see from the attached pictures of a typical drive. (I started at 80%, which is were I normally charge it) I used 19% of my energy to go 34.4 miles. That's nearly 1/5 of my power to go roughly 1/8 of the car's rated range.

19% of 240 should have been 45.6. Now I understand that the rated range is a fantasy number. But I don't think it is supposed to be that much of a fantasy number. As you can see, I kept it above the energy graph. I am careful. I don't hot rod. I don't even run the air very high at all. This is conservative driving.

That 34.4 miles comes to about 14% of the 240 what the EPA and Tesla rated for my car. (Again, I get it---that's the rated EPA range---but also the range that Tesla boasts my car gets). But instead of using that 14% of the energy, I used 19%.

I have 19" wheels. That's supposed to be a 5% mileage hit. So that accounts for 1.7 miles on that 34.4 mile trip.

With these numbers---the car would go about 170 miles. That isn't 240.

overall range.jpg

percentage.jpg


graph.jpg
 

ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
7,324
14,317
California
It sounds like EV ownership isn’t for you.

I suspect the 19” wheels over the 18” Aeros with caps on (which is how the car is tested/rated) is more like a 10% hit than 5%.

I suspect charging to 80% repeatedly is impacting your range calculation, and if you’re that worried about range you should absolutely be charging to 90% every day.

I also suspect your extrapolated math is very conservative and you could fairly easily achieve 190-200 miles if necessary on a single long trip.

But my first point is most important. This is obviously eating you up, despite no apparent practical impact to where you go, the way you want to drive, or anything else. It’s not worth it. Flogging the horse on this forum over and over isn’t going to make you feel better. It isn’t going to change the outcome. Tesla isn’t going to do anything for you. So really - you need to accept it and move on or dump the car. It’s not worth the stress.
 

mmanner

Member
Feb 28, 2017
299
778
Nashville
I know that's what many on this forum will say I am doing. But I have now had my car (SR+) for 3 months. I love it, but I am not enjoying it, because I just worry constantly about the fact that my range is so low. There is no other way to assess it. It's low.

Let me explain.

As you can see from the attached pictures of a typical drive. (I started at 80%, which is were I normally charge it) I used 19% of my energy to go 34.4 miles. That's nearly 1/5 of my power to go roughly 1/8 of the car's rated range.

19% of 240 should have been 45.6. Now I understand that the rated range is a fantasy number. But I don't think it is supposed to be that much of a fantasy number. As you can see, I kept it above the energy graph. I am careful. I don't hot rod. I don't even run the air very high at all. This is conservative driving.

That 34.4 miles comes to about 14% of the 240 what the EPA and Tesla rated for my car. (Again, I get it---that's the rated EPA range---but also the range that Tesla boasts my car gets). But instead of using that 14% of the energy, I used 19%.

I have 19" wheels. That's supposed to be a 5% mileage hit. So that accounts for 1.7 miles on that 34.4 mile trip.

With these numbers---the car would go about 170 miles. That isn't 240.

View attachment 566431
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View attachment 566433

Phil, I think you have classic range anxiety, something I had when I drove an early generation Nissan Leaf. In that case, I needed to worry a bit, since it got only about 75 miles under most conditions, and that made it hard to drive around town sometimes even using the entire battery. With a car that gets 2.5-3x that much, you should be fine. On long trips you'll have to work a bit harder to get superchargers set up, but for for local driving you have plenty of range. Change your usual charge to 90% for a couple weeks, and stop worrying about it and go with the flow of an electric car. Even goose it from time to time, it's great fun :). The extra 10% will erase the 5-10 percentage points of your 'lost range', if you want to look at it that way. I think you'll be fine, and if not, maybe EVs aren't for you until they have a lot more range than what you have now at that price point. However, I would give it awhile longer and relax about it before making a decision to get rid of the car.
Good luck,
Mark
 

mrbulk

Member
Sep 5, 2017
464
366
Las Vegas NV
Not to pile on but the OP's own title says it all. I myself have "only" 259 miles max on my '18 MS75D (likely even a bit less now that it's over two years old) but in reality I rarely road trip nor do I go very far each day, certainly not anywhere near 259 miles. I would guess this is probably true for most people - I heard the national average is actually less than 40 miles/day.

So each night I charge my car to 90% (about 220+ miles) and each following day I drive on about my merry way, not agonizing over range whatsoever.

On the half dozen road trips I've taken mostly to California (we live in Las Vegas), the one Supercharger stop I need to make to stretch the legs, use the restroom and stock up on snacks fits our travel schedule perfectly.

So to the OP, respectfully I would just charge up nightly and enjoy driving my state-of-art EV daily, and not fret about the range - unless you are a taxi driver or police officer or delivery person some other vocation that requires driving more than a couple hundred miles daily. In which case I'd get one of the Long Range versions from Tesla.

Cheers, :D
 

CapnDave

Member
Nov 11, 2019
14
18
Castaic, CA
I know that's what many on this forum will say I am doing. But I have now had my car (SR+) for 3 months. I love it, but I am not enjoying it, because I just worry constantly about the fact that my range is so low. There is no other way to assess it. It's low.

Let me explain.

As you can see from the attached pictures of a typical drive. (I started at 80%, which is were I normally charge it) I used 19% of my energy to go 34.4 miles. That's nearly 1/5 of my power to go roughly 1/8 of the car's rated range.

19% of 240 should have been 45.6. Now I understand that the rated range is a fantasy number. But I don't think it is supposed to be that much of a fantasy number. As you can see, I kept it above the energy graph. I am careful. I don't hot rod. I don't even run the air very high at all. This is conservative driving.

That 34.4 miles comes to about 14% of the 240 what the EPA and Tesla rated for my car. (Again, I get it---that's the rated EPA range---but also the range that Tesla boasts my car gets). But instead of using that 14% of the energy, I used 19%.

I have 19" wheels. That's supposed to be a 5% mileage hit. So that accounts for 1.7 miles on that 34.4 mile trip.

With these numbers---the car would go about 170 miles. That isn't 240.

View attachment 566431
View attachment 566432

View attachment 566433

I had a similar issue about a year ago (model 3 LR/RWD). Looking at your numbers, if 8kwh is 19% then your battery would only be 42kwh. I believe the battery in your car is more like 55kwh.

So when I had this problem I found a forum where this was discussed, and if I remember correctly the problem was a software issue. I was only using my car a little bit everyday then charging it at night. The software started calculating as though my battery had less capacity than it really did. The solution was to charge to 90%, drive down to 10%, then do it again a few times in a row. That solved it for me.

Hope that helps,
Dave
 

Vipercat

Member
Nov 25, 2018
192
178
The Netherlands
@PhilRogers, I tend to agree with the comments above. I have the luxury of driving a 2018 Model S 75D with 21” rims (!) in summer and the OEM 19” in winter. After 18 months and approximately 37K miles my average consumption is +/- 320wh/m (200wh/km) and never ever have I worried about my range. When I drive conservatively the car consumes only 250wh/m (156wh/km) and I enjoy it even more. I’ve been traveling all over Europe doing trips of 1500 miles or more, I can charge wherever and whenever I want (and need) and even enjoy that experience. I then chat with fellow Tesla drivers or simply enjoy some coffee at a local restaurant. For my daily commute, 140 miles round trip, the range is more then sufficient. I come home and are able to fully charge the car in 5 hours. I never have to visit a gas station, that alone is a bonus.

I honestly hope you’re able to change your mindset because driving these cars is more then worth it. Good luck!
 

PhilRogers

Member
Apr 25, 2020
85
55
Chicago
Thank you to all for your really kind comments. I think the finer point on this is the question of the 240 miles versus true performance. I always worry there is something wrong with my car. Tonight I went for dinner at a friend's house---lengthy trip---85 miles round trip. Started at 80% charge. Used 43% of the battery on that round trip. That translates to a true range of 197 miles.

I guess my point is---is the real range of this car about 200 miles and the 240 is a fantasy number? I think I'd be good with that and quit being so concerned about it all the time. On the other hand, if there is an SR+ owner out there who says, "No, I routinely have a true range of 230 miles..." then I'm worried.

What do you think? Is the real truth that an SR+ is really about a 200 mile car? Because that would be ok with me. I'd just like to know---because it would equip me a lot better for planning in the future---

By the way, to the really helpful poster above who suggested there might be an issue with repeatedly charging only to 80%---that's what Tesla told me to do. I think it even suggests in the manual that 80% should be my routine max---unless I'm going on a long trip. Is that wrong?

Lastly, please don't take this as a slap at Tesla or EV's in general. I'm not being disloyal. I'm just trying to learn.

Thank you,
phil
 

Klia

Member
May 21, 2020
14
9
Bay Area
I have a relatively new SR, basically a forced 90%-range copy of SR+; totally understand OP’s thought process. I think mine does even worse on the mile/battery-percent. I Have basically resigned to the fact the car is a short-range commute car and need be charged frequently. Once you have a good source of frequent charging, you Just charge as frequently as you feel like and forget about the car’s battery efficiency. my next ev will definitely be a long range model to help forget it even more. While the car is definitely a joy to drive, I agree Tesla’s advertised range is misleading at best.
 
Jul 19, 2020
32
34
Monterey
I can understand your angst. Making the rated range in my car is like a bad video game.

Have you tried adjusting your climate control. Run it in manual with AC off and temp set all the way to LO and see how much lower your wh/mi gets. I'm not 100% sure on how climate and entertainment is calculated into battery usage but it has an affect.

All I can tell you is that if this bothers you now then wait until winter hits. Seeing as how you're in Chicago, you might lose more range when its colder.
 

camalaio

Active Member
May 28, 2019
1,483
2,188
Vernon, BC, Canada
Like the last thread, I think this is something related to standby usage and not your actual driving. Which, yes, is a very Tesla problem, not a general EV problem.

I do not agree that getting the EPA rating is hard for this car, while driving. You're actually doing really good at 238Wh/mi. But you seem to have shown only half the trip again, and I think you lost the rest in the time in between?

Can you confirm if I might be interpreting your case correctly? If so, we can try to figure out where it's being lost.

I don't think this is classic range anxiety. You're getting damn near the advertised efficiency and seem like you'd be happy if it overall reflected that. You're losing energy somewhere else unexpectedly, which is indeed incredibly frustrating.

EDIT: Wanted to add that we get rated efficiency going 110km/h in 35°C weather with the AC very comfortably at 22°C. That's 68mph in 95°F, set to 72°F. With the less efficient AWD. Your problems are not related to AC, rims, or speed.

Edit: derp. I misread the graph. Ignore everything I said.
 
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camalaio

Active Member
May 28, 2019
1,483
2,188
Vernon, BC, Canada
I had a similar issue about a year ago (model 3 LR/RWD). Looking at your numbers, if 8kwh is 19% then your battery would only be 42kwh. I believe the battery in your car is more like 55kwh.

So when I had this problem I found a forum where this was discussed, and if I remember correctly the problem was a software issue. I was only using my car a little bit everyday then charging it at night. The software started calculating as though my battery had less capacity than it really did. The solution was to charge to 90%, drive down to 10%, then do it again a few times in a row. That solved it for me.

Hope that helps,
Dave
Dave is onto something.

8kWh is a very rounded number, but from the other two we can calculate 8.15kWh. Extrapolating given a rounded percent, this means the usable capacity is about 41.8-44.1kWh (lots of room for error in these calculations).

This implies a total capacity of 43.8-46.1kWh. My understanding is these are 54.5kWh or so when brand new. You thus have somewhere between 15.3-19.7% battery degradation.

This aligns very well with you expecting 240mi rated range to only consume 14% for your trip, getting close to rated efficiency, but actually getting closer to 19% consumed. This is because even when being efficient, a degraded battery uses more of its total capacity, since it just has less.

If you set your car to display range, open the app, and set it to charge to 100%, what range does it show on the app in the battery icon while dragging?
 

user212_nr

Active Member
Aug 26, 2019
1,407
875
US
Used 43% of the battery on that round trip. That translates to a true range of 197 miles.

Again, if your worst example is a trip where you used 43% battery, then you are seriously mistaken about all of your range concerns.

I guess my point is---is the real range of this car about 200 miles and the 240 is a fantasy number? I think I'd be good with that and quit being so concerned about it all the time. On the other hand, if there is an SR+ owner out there who says, "No, I routinely have a true range of 230 miles..." then I'm worried.

In order to get the range of "240" you need to drive at about 55 miles per hour with the climate control at a low setting, along a road with no significant elevation and good traction.

The exact parameters for the test are determined by the EPA. I don't have a link, but Tesla has to compete with other EV manufacturers using a standardized number - they aren't misrepresenting the car, and there is no reason to think yours is malfunctioning.

55 mph might sound like a joke, but it is actually the posted speed limit in much of the U.S.
 
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camalaio

Active Member
May 28, 2019
1,483
2,188
Vernon, BC, Canada
Thank you to all for your really kind comments. I think the finer point on this is the question of the 240 miles versus true performance. I always worry there is something wrong with my car. Tonight I went for dinner at a friend's house---lengthy trip---85 miles round trip. Started at 80% charge. Used 43% of the battery on that round trip. That translates to a true range of 197 miles.

I guess my point is---is the real range of this car about 200 miles and the 240 is a fantasy number? I think I'd be good with that and quit being so concerned about it all the time. On the other hand, if there is an SR+ owner out there who says, "No, I routinely have a true range of 230 miles..." then I'm worried.

What do you think? Is the real truth that an SR+ is really about a 200 mile car? Because that would be ok with me. I'd just like to know---because it would equip me a lot better for planning in the future---

By the way, to the really helpful poster above who suggested there might be an issue with repeatedly charging only to 80%---that's what Tesla told me to do. I think it even suggests in the manual that 80% should be my routine max---unless I'm going on a long trip. Is that wrong?

Lastly, please don't take this as a slap at Tesla or EV's in general. I'm not being disloyal. I'm just trying to learn.

Thank you,
phil

Apologies for not reading the whole thread earlier.

This trip's example also agrees with an approximately 17-18% degradation in your battery. Now, whether that's a bad estimate or a true representation of your battery's health, who knows. I personally don't believe Tesla is routinely that far off, though I understand the hope for it. Keep in mind they can be off in either direction.

You're absolutely fine charging to 80%, and many people are. The "recalibration" by a high charge and discharge has been ineffective for many, effective for only a few. Sometimes Tesla recommends doing this as well. Ignore anything you hear about "balancing" your pack unless it's from Tesla, but be aware even Tesla reps aren't generally battery experts. Most aren't.

You should talk with Tesla. Because you appear to be under the 30% degradation threshold for warranty, bluntly, they won't care. But you can at least have it on record if it declines further.
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
11,527
13,431
Riverside Co. CA
By the way, to the really helpful poster above who suggested there might be an issue with repeatedly charging only to 80%---that's what Tesla told me to do. I think it even suggests in the manual that 80% should be my routine max---unless I'm going on a long trip. Is that wrong?


phil

There isnt anywhere in any offiical tesla manual where they specify a percent to charge. In general, the manual tells you to plug in every day and that there is no advantage to running it down to fill it back up. The range tesla recommends you charge to, is anywhere along the sliders that doesnt say "Trip".


The 80% comes from many on these and other boards who say that 80% is better than 90%.

We also are fairly certain that the pack balances over time, and I know there was discussion in another thread about what voltage, etc that happens at. Rather than point to that, we can say we know that the pack balances slowly if left plugged in over time, and we know that will happen at 90% charge (the last hashmark before trip). What is guessed is that it happens lower than that. What we know, is that it happens at 90%.

So, Plug it in and set it to 90%, not 80%.

Your statements also say to me that EV ownership is not really for you. I am not making that as a mean statement. I am saying that because its fairly obvious you have been fixated on range since you got the car. Most of your posts on this website have been about range, and complaining about it (and apologizing for complaining).

Yet.... You are charging to 80% every day, so its obvious you dont "need" any additional range for your day to day life. You are focused on the range number because of "reasons". You keep saying "I just need to know" but, you have gotten feedback in several threads, some technical, some not, that tell you, but you either still dont "know" or dont want to accept what you are being told.

No car is worth the amount of angst you seem to be in from the many posts you have made about range. You have had the car 3 months now, so should have a decent idea of how it works, and how range works. Your driving style is efficient. You have 19 inch wheels, not 18 with aero caps... because you liked the look of the 19s. Not sure where the "5%" range hit came from in relation to the 18s vs 19s. Maybe its 5% 18 Vs 19 without aeros, and another 5% if you put aeros on.

In any case, you keep saying that you love the car, and you would be happy just knowing. So, for maximum range, get rid of the 19 inch wheels and buy tesla 18 inch wheels (or trade with someone who wants 19s). Keep the aero caps on. That will likely improve the number on the screen, but the number on the screen is not impacting your life in actuality, because if you actually NEEDED more range, you wouldnt be charging to 80% every day instead of 90%.

Set the car to 90% and leave it there for a couple weeks, instead of 80%. If at the end of doing both of those things (switching to 18inch wheels with aero caps on) and, letting your pack balance by setting it to 90% instead of 80%, you still find yourself focused on the range number, then you should explore selling the car, because as I said, no car is worth that much angst, and angst you have in spades.
 
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PhilRogers

Member
Apr 25, 2020
85
55
Chicago
I am sorry---but I just disagree.

If I bought a "color television" in the seventies, and was promised "full color programming" only to learn that it only is available when the temperature outside is exactly 70 degrees on a clear night with no wind, and that at other times I would face vertical lines and a black and white picture, I would say to myself----gee, this isn't what I was promised (or what I bought). I can't imagine people would then say---- "Looks like color television isn't for you".

I think it's a little disingenuous to say "Well, you need to drive 55 mph with your air turned off". If you said that to someone driving a Honda Civic they'd laugh at you, and tell you that you don't own a car, you own a hobby. As I said in another post, when I mentioned to someone that Teslas take a pretty big mileage hit in rain with wipers and lights operating in chilly temperatures, their response was, "Oh, you mean the kind of conditions people have to drive in---a lot!"

I don't think it's fair to say, "Looks like EV's aren't for you" when all I'm doing is asking why the range is not only below what was advertised....but WAY below. It's absolutely true, that you rarely get EPA range in a gasoline car. If it's advertised at 26 mpg, you'll often get 24.

But you don't get 15.

I'll go back to what I said earlier. Just tell me---Is an SR+ going to be lucky to get 200 miles under normal driving conditions? Otherwise, if I'm expecting 240 or 230 or something in that neighborhood, I'll worry there's something clearly wrong with my car. Not Teslas or EV's in general---just mine. The one that had 600 miles on it when I picked it up---after having been driven as a demonstrator. Was it supercharged too many times? How was it driven? I don't know.

But don't flame me for it. I don't think that's fair. And yes, I've brought it up numerous times because I get conflicting answers or sometimes really negative snarky fanboy responses.

There were some really kind comments in this thread. And I truly appreciate those. Forgive me---I don't know what battery balancing is but it sounds like I need to learn. That's why I take to the message boards to try to figure it out. But if this forum is only for people who blindly support the company and won't admit the shortcomings of the vehicle, then I think that's pretty shortsighted. Even Elon Musk wouldn't agree with that.

Thanks to everyone.
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
11,527
13,431
Riverside Co. CA
If you want a short answer, its " you will get between 190-230 miles on a charge, provided you are not expecting to get that range over a period of days driving, and expect to get that range driving 65 ish MPH".

You dont need to learn what battery balancing is, I am just recommending you plug it in and set it to 90% instead of 80%, and also get 18inch wheels with aero caps on, since you are focused on range.

There is no "how much mileage will I get on a charge" because, as has been said before, it depends on temerature, weather, etc. If you want a range, if you drive 65 MPH and take a trip where you dont stop, you will likely get between 200-230 miles. Extrapolating it out from other distances is an exercise in frustration, as evidenced by your situation.

I was extremely careful not to "flame" you, but it appears you seem to think my post was doing so. Its just my opinion (which is worth exactly what you are paying for it, which is nothing) that no car is worth this much angst. Maybe you cant see it because you are so close to it, but it is obvious that it is on your mind constantly. I feel bad for you, honestly, because its obviously eating you up for some reason. Hopefully that changes, but its my opinion it would have, already if it was going to.

Anyway, I hope you get the answers you desire.
 

jschmitt3

Member
Jul 6, 2020
53
38
Audubon, PA
Phil -

I am going to try to draw a closer analogy between the concerns you are raising and my experience with another non-Tesla vehicle. 8 years ago I purchased a higher-end Hybrid (a 2013 Lincoln Mkz); at the time Lincoln advertised 45MPG efficiency; within 2 months of the car coming out, Lincoln had downgraded their numbers publicly to 40-42; There were quite a few people on a forum very much like this one who were concerned about what they were seeing in the real world; there were folks who claimed they could only get 32-36, while others like myself were consistently getting 40-42 MPG.

Ultimately the "real world numbers" were all over the map because of different driving styles, different configurations (tires, suspension), different climates, and daily driving distances. 8 years later, I still get 38-40 on that car with my driving style, but my 17 year old son (who has a led foot) is only getting 28-30. I spent a lot of time worrying about these numbers when I first got the car (there were people [hypermilers] who claimed they could get 50; I found myself getting too wrapped up in this and it affected my enjoyment of the car. The enjoyment I got out of that car was ultimately that it was a Hybrid, my gas costs were way down and that I enjoyed driving that car.

Now - my new TM3 is on order (I have test driven a few over the last few months), I got the long range version with the 19 inch tires; The advertised range for this config is 322; but based upon feedback in this forum and on YouTube, I am expecting that max will be about 290;
Based upon the feedback about charging levels - I plan on charging mine to 85% on a regular basis; Therefore I am expecting my normal daily range (upon leaving my house) will be 250. For 95+% of my daily driving, I will never drive more than 200 miles per day - and will take it back to 85% probably 3x per week.

As I spent time reflecting on all the comments both good and bad in this thread .... I tried to remind myself why people like us go these forums, because we want to enjoy our cars and share common experiences with others. Feel good about your purchase, enjoy the car as much as possible - but don't get too hung about the mileage range at 80, 85 or even 90%;

At the same time however, don't let anyone make you feel bad about your concerns or questions - they are all legitimate!

Keep us all posted on how much you are enjoying all of the other aspects of the car;

Until mine comes in, I'm living vicariously thru everyone else!
:)

John
 
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camalaio

Active Member
May 28, 2019
1,483
2,188
Vernon, BC, Canada
I think most everyone, including myself initially, is missing the point.

This is not about efficiency. Their efficiency is actually great, despite the "non-ideal" rims. They are concerned that even despite their great efficiency, they seem to be consuming percent faster than expected. This is not about wind, rims, cold, rain, etc. Rated efficiency is achievable even at 70mph with the air conditioning on, and this is clearly not the problem here.

This is about reported battery degradation. They consume percent faster than expected because the battery is reporting a smaller than usual capacity.

@PhilRogers you should expect 240mi in "happy" conditions with a new, healthy battery. Unfortunately, your battery does not appear to be a spring chicken. I know the reaction you're gonna have to this, but the reason for the confusion is... using the percentage display. If you switched it to range, it would show less than rated because the battery is degraded. But people say to not use this because it clearly shows the degradation which may worry you. Clearly you care about it, so let's make it less confusing by showing it.

I stand by my comment about ignoring things like balancing. To me, it's very clear the claims made on these forums regarding balancing are based on incorrect data, so just forget about it. Balancing is not something you need to concern yourself with, Tesla designed the car to take care of this for you. Go to Tesla to figure out what's up with your battery.

If you want to DIY this at all (e.g. to figure out if there actually is imbalance, or what the root cause of lower capacity is), you need to spend a few bucks and install an adapter to get diagnostic information.

 
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