Whitestar / Fisker "Eco Chic" speculation

[Kardax]

Gas turbines are more efficient but they like to run at a constant speed.

If you are running a serial PHEV then suddenly you don't need to throttle the engine. An engine that can run a generator at a steady, fixed rate will do the job.

If that's true, then it seems inevitable that someone's gonna try it

I wouldn't rule out a large automaker from giving it a shot. They have enough R&D budget to attempt it, and would love to get all the patents on a promising technology.

-Ryan / Kardax

 

[tonybelding]

If that's true, then it seems inevitable that someone's gonna try it

I wouldn't rule out a large automaker from giving it a shot. They have enough R&D budget to attempt it, and would love to get all the patents on a promising technology.

I wouldn't rule it out, but I wouldn't rule it in either.

A cautionary story. . .

Back in the 1980s three companies formed an alliance to dislodge Intel from the core of most computers. Apple, IBM and Motorola pooled their resources to create a new processor called PowerPC. This was made using the latest RISC design theory, and it was designed to emulate both the Motorola 680X0 series and the Intel 80X86. The big idea was that both Mac OS and MS-DOS/Windows would run on the same PowerPC hardware, and Intel would be out.

Because they didn't have to support all the outdated standards and past mistakes of 80X86, the PowerPC developed about 80% more processing power than Intel X86 chips of the day. Sounds great, doesn't it? Apple immediately began migrating all their Macs to PowerPC.

The rest of the Intel+Microsoft based PC industry yawned and ignored it. The message was: "Change our OS, our hardware and everything just for a measly 80% increase in performance? Thanks, but no thanks. Call us again when you can manage 300%, then we might think about it."

Intel didn't stand still either. They were already a large company with lots of resources and very clever people in R&D. They redesigned the X86 with a RISC core. They never made it as efficient as PowerPC, but after a few years they matched PowerPC in raw speed performance -- which was all anybody cared about in those days anyhow.

Many years later, Mac and Windows PC systems did finally end up running on the same hardware: Intel-based hardware, including all the clumsy and inefficient misfeatures from the whole X86 history. PowerPC was abandoned because IBM and Motorola didn't have enough market share and resources to support it and keep up with Intel's R&D.

So the lesson is. . . Just because you invented a better mousetrap doesn't mean the world is going to beat a path to your door. An established industry can have a huge resistance to change, even when you are dangling the promise of large performance or efficiency improvements in front of them.

 

[TEG]

Sun Sparc and Dec Alpha were other chips that should have gained favor over Intel, but the "Wintel alliance" with MS-Software always favoring Intel kept them from catching up to Intel.

 

[Kardax]

The Wintel analogy doesn't work in the automotive business, where pretty much every manufacturer has their own engine designs and they copy each others' technologies all the time. Unlike a computer processor that relies on OS vendors and software developers to succeed, a manufacturer's own demand is more than enough to make a new engine design successful.

The relatively recent emergence of Atkinson cycle engines is an obvious example of this: for years the Toyota Prius was the only car using this design, but Toyota didn't complain. Another one is Tesla's AC induction motor... does Tesla care that almost everyone else is using DC / permanent magnet motors?

-Ryan / Kardax

P.S. You might find it ironic that the PowerPC architecture is used by Microsoft's XBox 360

 

[TEG]

To get back on topic, don't forget this old Tesla blog discussing hybrids.

 

[BlackbirdHighway]

Generators

One of the employment listings on the Tesla website is for a Lead Engineer - Generators.

Sounds like they are working on a hybrid design, probably serial, either for Whitestar or Bluestar or maybe both. I'm betting that Whitestar will turn out to be a series hybrid.

Or maybe it will have a genset trailer option, ala TZero.

 

[Cobos]

It's pretty much a given that the Bluestar either has a hybrid option if there aren't any large improvements in batteryprice/performance. I'm not so sure about the Whitestar though, as the Whitestar in many ways is the car they will start to really make a name off. If the Volt is basicly doing exactly the same as the Whitestar at about $20k less money I can't see how they intend to compete? Regardless I hope there is a pure-EV whitestar version soon, it might be the 70k version not the 50k version but I don't know. They should seriously look into the European market as they will accept a lot shorter range than US customers.
Anyways my main point was that however you cut it it would be very usefull to have someone that can tell you the generator you want doesn't exist or is very expensive or might be a good idea etc. Since this is something you might want to do inhouse, someone with generator experience is a cheap investment this early on... How much does an engineer cost a year? Can't be that much ?

Cobos

 

[TEG]

If Whitestar is a serial hybrid, I would be tempted to look at the Lexus GS450h instead. Proven Toyota/Lexus design versus a newcomer. I don't buy the argument that Serial Hybrid is so much better than the Toyota Synergy system.

Much talk was made of the Prius being ugly (or at least boring), but the market is starting to get more decent looking hybrids now. Someone at my office just bought an Altima hybrid. The GS450h isn't a bad looking car either.

Perhaps the real differentiator would be the ability to plug in. It seems that Toyota could easily add a plug in option if they think there is demand for it.

 

[mt2]

We can probably relax.

This article suggests that the Fisker PHEV will "...go head-to-head an all-electric sport sedan that's in the works from Silicon Valley automaker Tesla Motors." Note that one sentence suggests both that the Fisker is not the WhiteStar, and the WhiteStar is all electric.

Well, relax a little. Darryl's recent blog still has me a little jumpy.

 

[TEG]

That article mentions that Fisker works out of Palo Alto... The city next to Tesla's first office, and the upcoming Tesla sales/service office. I still wonder if Tesla and Fisker are involved in some way.

 

[tonybelding]

That article mentions that Fisker works out of Palo Alto... The city next to Tesla's first office, and the upcoming Tesla sales/service office. I still wonder if Tesla and Fisker are involved in some way.

Ahem.

Well. . . If I were inclined toward speculation. . .

We know that when starting to work on DarkStar, Tesla solicited stylings from various design houses before choosing Lotus. We don't know that Fisker was one of the contenders -- but it would make sense if they were.

Maybe WhiteStar went through a similar process. Maybe Fisker worked up a styling proposal for Tesla, and then Tesla rejected it in favor of another, and then Fisker decided to go ahead and recycle the work into their own product.

I think I can see a family resemblance between the Roadster and the Eco-Chic (aside from the nose, which looks like an Aston-Martin that was subjected to Joker serum). But then maybe it's just my imagination, I dunno.

 

[Iz]

The only manner in which Tesla is going to set itself apart from GM's Volt or similar vehicles is having WhiteStar as a pure EV. Anything less is anti-climactic, given the presence of Volt and other vehicles that are sure to follow. I see Whitestar as Tesla's flagship vehicle because of its price (hopefully ~ 50k) and 4-door, 5-passenger, pure EV configuration.

We should expect that by 2010 battery technology has moved ahead somewhat. Not in great leaps and bounds but well enough to garner respectable miles/charge.

Fisker may be working on the Chinese electric car that is supposed to be introduced around 2009.

 

[WarpedOne]

In my eyes WS needs to be sufficiently different from hybrids from other big guys for Tesla to succeed. Using a piston ICE is a no-go from this point of view. But what about some other generator tech?

Would "we" be willing to accept WS with a small gasturbine power generator on board? So small it isn't capable of powering the car all by itself (less then 20kW) but it does add some juice to batteries while driving so it extends the available range and can fill up the batteries in say 3 hours when left alone?

Are there any such generators out there yet?

Edit: I guess there are: Wikipedia: Gas turbine

Basic WS model might thus be "pure EV" with ESS as we know it and the more expensive model with greater power and range might have the same ESS with addition of small gas-turbine generator. In my eyes this goes well along the things Tesla people have talked about so far.

 

[tonybelding]

Would "we" be willing to accept WS with a small gasturbine power generator on board? So small it isn't capable of powering the car all by itself (less then 20kW) but it does add some juice to batteries while driving so it extends the available range and can fill up the batteries in say 3 hours when left alone?

If it can't power the car all by itself, then it would have to be running basically all the time when you are driving? Isn't that a step in the wrong direction?

My feeling is that WhiteStar should be a pure BEV. Somebody's got to show the world how good a four-door pure BEV can be, and if Tesla doesn't do it then I don't know who will.

The one compromise that looks interesting to me is the genset trailer. I wasn't too thrilled with this idea until I saw the one for the RAV4 EV. As somebody else said, that is the true electric car with a range extender.

If you don't need the trailer, then you don't buy it, and you can enjoy your 150-mile (or whatever) pure BEV. If you make that occasional long trip, you can get the trailer and then hook it up when you need it -- but still not have to tow it around every day.

 

[WarpedOne]

If it can't power the car all by itself, then it would have to be running basically all the time when you are driving? Isn't that a step in the wrong direction?

No. As I see it, it wouldn't need to run all the time. You would turn it on only when you'd start a long trip. For regular day to day driving it would be switched off, car running in "pure BEW" mode. Problem is, existing turbine generators found online are all too big - closet size.

My feeling is that WhiteStar should be a pure BEV. Somebody's got to show the world how good a four-door pure BEV can be, and if Tesla doesn't do it then I don't know who will.

I'm with you on this. But as Martin said, you need to be naive but also you have to face the reality. I'd love WS being pure BEW but what if batteries won't advance enough and will suffice only for 200miles of careful driving (or even less because WS will be much heaver than roadster)?

I feel that Tesla will have to offer some option of increasing this kinda limited range. Maybe a trailer, maybe an on-board genset. As long as it comes as an optional upgrade or add-on WS will still be pure BEW.

 

[tonybelding]

I'm with you on this. But as Martin said, you need to be naive but also you have to face the reality. I'd love WS being pure BEW but what if batteries won't advance enough and will suffice only for 200miles of careful driving (or even less because WS will be much heaver than roadster)?

I was under the impression that they are aiming for 150 miles with the base model ($50K) and maybe 200 miles with the premium model ($70K).

But I may be wrong. I can't find the source on that, and even if I could it would be outdated info now.

 

[Cobos]

I might add that the Think is primarily a city car but with airbags and a topspeed matching the highest legal speed in Norway it is intended to work on highways as well. That car has 180km range so 112 miles of range, and that should work nicely.
I'd actually like a small HC burner to create heat during winter. As anything burning is about 100% efficient in creating heat this little addition will drasticly increase winter time range. Expected usage is in the 2-5 gallon a season range
So if they bring out a 100 miles range car that would be find by me...

Cobos

 

[TEG]

By the way, I have to say I am not nearly as excited about the "Eco-Chic" styling as I am by the Tesla Roadster.

Certainly the "Eco-Chic" is bold, different and somewhat audacious.
But, I think the front hood is too long, and that front grille just doesn't work for me.

 

[TEG]

Perhaps a bit of Citroen C-Metisse styling there?

 

[vfx]

Ahem. Maybe Fisker worked up a styling proposal for Tesla, and then Tesla rejected it in favor of another, and then Fisker decided to go ahead and recycle the work into their own product.

I considered this as well. Nothing to say that Fisker diod not win the hypothetical design competition and Tesla is going with it. Then Fisker, after learning all about EVs decided to make one of their own!


Speculating is fun.