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Who has lost regen with winter tires?

Darthbenji

Active Member
Mar 27, 2018
1,003
594
Ontario
This is not a battery temperature or state of charge issue. Those possible affects have been eliminated in discovering this.

A number of model 3 owners have found that once they’ve installed winter tires, the regenerative braking has disappeared at higher speeds. It only kicks in at about 30km/h. Prior to that, manually braking is required.

IF this problem has affected you, and you have ruled out a cold battery or too high of a charge, would you post the winter tires you went with and rims. Also, if anyone with a model S or X has this issue, please post too. I’ve only read it affecting the model 3 and have seen it first hand with replika rims and continental SIs. I have read others have it with OEM rims, Xice and the Nokians.
Here is a post form someone that went to Tesla about it:

Just got my Model 3 RWD back from TESLA Service Center. Had literally no Regen...akin to coasting...had to use breaks all the time. The TESLA Technician and I , both sent info in “Technical Bulletin” form of why I had practically zero Regen.
Just before we (GTA area, Ontario) got an unusual hot spell (28C temp), I had swapped rims ‘n tires from “All Season” to “Winters”. Continental Winter ContactPro SI Tires, to be exact. These tires are rated highly for roadhandling, ice and snow traction and really short stopping distances.

After exhaustive tests by TESLA Tech, it was decided to switch back to All Season Tires and Regen test again.
Hey Presto, back came full Regen. So in a nutshell, the winter tires composition I.e. higher content of silicone to keep rubber pliable and not stiff in cold temperatures, makes the same composition advantage, a disadvantage if you drive in warmer weather....too much stiction affecting a Regen module sensitivity.

So, for all us Canadians that drive down south at winter onset, we’ll have practically zero Regen, once we hit Alabama/Georgia and on the way back, get full Regen once in Illinois, Ohio and Michigan...or whatever states you drive through, that are in the northern hemisphere.
Cheaper winter tires with poorer roadholding, will tend to give you better Regen but less safer driving.

Let’s see how widespread this is and whether Tesla can do something about it.
 

5_+JqckQttqck

Active Member
Apr 27, 2018
1,851
1,336
Toronto
ION Rims with Nokian R3 (have this same issue) - it's not a bad thing considering if the roads are slushed/snow covered. High instant braking regen at high speeds will cause the car to lose traction. Maybe Tesla thought of this when it detects non-OEM rim weight + low ambient temperatures.

Plus, they KNOW where we live and drive. Safety feature built in! :rolleyes:
 

Darthbenji

Active Member
Mar 27, 2018
1,003
594
Ontario
Totally agree if there’s snow and slush. We can just set regen to low in that circumstance and actually use the regen the other 90% of winter when the roads are clear.
 

Vawlkus

Active Member
Feb 28, 2017
1,543
789
Halifax
My X has not had this problem. Last winter it was using pirelli winters on replika rims. If need be I can dig out the details on both from the invoice.

Unless it’s related to v9, I don’t think it’ll occur for me this winter either.
 

bpjod

Supporting Member
Nov 5, 2016
434
1,919
Alberta, Canada
Got Nokian Hakkapeliitta R3s installed on my 18" Aero wheels a few weeks back. I noticed the limited regen right away and thought it odd, but attributed it to the cold weather limited regen at first. Then we had a day that was +18C and still limited/no regen so I started paying more attention. I did a reset of the computer, tried turning regen from std to low and back again; nothing helped. I also started to notice that at slow speeds the regen seemed normal but at normal in-town and highway speeds no regen. I was thinking of asking if anyone else has noticed this behaviour, so thanks for starting this thread. Sounds like my car's behaviour is exactly the same as yours.

Since I got my tires swapped at Kal Tire and I'm using my original rims and TPMS sensors, I find it strange that the car knows I've got winter tires on. I could see Tesla programming for limited regen when roads are possibly poor, but why at +18C? And it strikes me as *really* odd that someone who has winter tires gets limited regen, but someone on the same roads in the same conditions, but with all-season (or even performance!) tires would still have regular regen. They'd be the ones far more likely to lose traction from stronger regen. Odd programming decisions. I guess that's what you get when you have Californians coding software for cars in a Canadian winter.
 
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dusdev

Member
May 15, 2018
357
389
Ontario
It sounds like something Tesla is going to have to address. Perhaps through a firmware update. Let's get some techs up here from California to figure it out. This is definitely super unappealing. Planning on getting the Nokian R3s installed mid-Nov.
 

dusdev

Member
May 15, 2018
357
389
Ontario
A number of model 3 owners have found that once they’ve installed winter tires, the regenerative braking has disappeared at higher speeds. It only kicks in at about 30km/h. Prior to that, manually braking is required.

I'm wondering if you could elaborate. Does the system actually show a message ("Limited Regeneration"). Or is it more of the actual physical affect (i.e. less negative G's when easing off the accelerator?).
 

Darthbenji

Active Member
Mar 27, 2018
1,003
594
Ontario
I'm wondering if you could elaborate. Does the system actually show a message ("Limited Regeneration"). Or is it more of the actual physical affect (i.e. less negative G's when easing off the accelerator?).
No warning message, no dots indicating reduced regen. All appears normal. You lift at speed and just coast. If you manually brake it’ll kick in once you slow to about 30km/h.

The appeal of no brake jobs with a Tesla just went up in smoke since five months of the year I’ll be braking manually.

The problem I see to get it addressed is that as soon as you say ‘winter tires’ you don’t get heard. The reaction from people is ‘oh it’s just the temp or your charge is too high’. We know all that!!!
 

dusdev

Member
May 15, 2018
357
389
Ontario
N
The problem I see to get it addressed is that as soon as you say ‘winter tires’ you don’t get heard. The reaction from people is ‘oh it’s just the temp or your charge is too high’. We know all that!!!

I've seen this on the other threads you've posted to. Should easily be able to prove it wrong assuming a nice day or two in Nov. I have underground heated parking. Should be able to show ambient temps ~20C. I'll see what happens when I get the R3's installed in Nov.
 

bpjod

Supporting Member
Nov 5, 2016
434
1,919
Alberta, Canada
No warning message, no dots indicating reduced regen. All appears normal. You lift at speed and just coast. If you manually brake it’ll kick in once you slow to about 30km/h.

The appeal of no brake jobs with a Tesla just went up in smoke since five months of the year I’ll be braking manually.

The problem I see to get it addressed is that as soon as you say ‘winter tires’ you don’t get heard. The reaction from people is ‘oh it’s just the temp or your charge is too high’. We know all that!!!

If they feel they need to save us from regen causing us to lose traction, there are a lot more important data points they could use rather than does the car have winter tires or not. It's entirely possible to drive with winter tires on a warm fall day with no snow on the roads! Some other variables they could use (quick off-the-top-of-my-head list, given more time I'm sure I could think of others):
  • outside temperature
  • do the cameras see snow/ice on the road?
  • has the traction control system detected unusually easy wheel spin?
  • what is the weather forecast for the car's location (since they're connected to the cloud anyway)?
Take this data and determine an appropriate condition for engaging reduced regeneration. And then WARN US with a message on the screen that we're driving with limited regeneration due to road conditions so that we don't expect one pedal driving to reduce our speed when the regen is in fact limited.
 

dusdev

Member
May 15, 2018
357
389
Ontario
Also I wonder if this is limited to RWD or will apply to AWD also? If the car sensors are detecting a wheel rotation rate differential between front/rear when you start deceleration it may ease off the regen to avoid a spinout. With AWD it would have more precise control over the front rotation rate.
 
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Darthbenji

Active Member
Mar 27, 2018
1,003
594
Ontario
If they feel they need to save us from regen causing us to lose traction, there are a lot more important data points they could use rather than does the car have winter tires or not. It's entirely possible to drive with winter tires on a warm fall day with no snow on the roads! Some other variables they could use (quick off-the-top-of-my-head list, given more time I'm sure I could think of others):
  • outside temperature
  • do the cameras see snow/ice on the road?
  • has the traction control system detected unusually easy wheel spin?
  • what is the weather forecast for the car's location (since they're connected to the cloud anyway)?
Take this data and determine an appropriate condition for engaging reduced regeneration. And then WARN US with a message on the screen that we're driving with limited regeneration due to road conditions so that we don't expect one pedal driving to reduce our speed when the regen is in fact limited.

Exactly. This is not only a ‘where’s my no brake job Tesla’ it’s also a huge safety issue. Zero warning that you have no regen coming up to a red light or stopped traffic isn’t helpful or safe.

The system gives a warning or other onscreen clues that you have limited regen due to cold battery or too high a state of charge. This issue provides no notice. All looks normal which tells me Tesla doesn’t even know about it. Why warn for two factors and stay silent on a third?
 
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rpm001

Member
Mar 26, 2017
262
318
Toronto
This thread is really interesting and concerning. FWIW, I did not notice anything last year when I put my winters on my S 75D. I should be swapping them on again in the next couple days and will pay attention.
 

Whisky

Member
May 12, 2017
237
258
Toronto, ON
The soft rubber used with terrific snow tires can fool with traction, especially in warmer weather. My previous car (BMW two-door) refused to accelerate at ramp-merging speeds if I floored it (the traction control light went on). I'd have to do a gentler acceleration, or let traction control figure out how fast I could go. This wasn't an issue at zub-zero temperatures, but admittedly by acceleration was likely not as enthusiastic. After reading more about it, I realized that high-end Nokian tires were too much for what I needed, especially in a car with 400+ HP. It's never happened in my MX, but it's also a real heavy car!

Anyway, not sure if that's it, but I'm happy to speculate!
 

dusdev

Member
May 15, 2018
357
389
Ontario
The soft rubber used with terrific snow tires can fool with traction, especially in warmer weather. My previous car (BMW two-door) refused to accelerate at ramp-merging speeds if I floored it (the traction control light went on).

Was the BMW all-wheel drive or RWD?
 

bpjod

Supporting Member
Nov 5, 2016
434
1,919
Alberta, Canada
To clarify, mine's a 3 LR RWD. Some have questioned whether there's a difference between RWD and AWD and others about the X and S. I think they're good questions ado wanted to specify my model.
 
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5_+JqckQttqck

Active Member
Apr 27, 2018
1,851
1,336
Toronto
The soft rubber used with terrific snow tires can fool with traction, especially in warmer weather. My previous car (BMW two-door) refused to accelerate at ramp-merging speeds if I floored it (the traction control light went on). I'd have to do a gentler acceleration, or let traction control figure out how fast I could go. This wasn't an issue at zub-zero temperatures, but admittedly by acceleration was likely not as enthusiastic. After reading more about it, I realized that high-end Nokian tires were too much for what I needed, especially in a car with 400+ HP. It's never happened in my MX, but it's also a real heavy car!

Anyway, not sure if that's it, but I'm happy to speculate!

So you think it's the TC? Make some sense since the winters would grip harder on the pavement and fool the regen controller.

Or.. the R3's lower rolling resistance is simply different vs the OEM summer tires (grips less and rolls more).

Someone with more knowledge please chime in.
 

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