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Who is right Tony Abbott or Elon Musk

Discussion in 'Australia & New Zealand' started by meloccom, Jun 20, 2015.

  1. meloccom

    meloccom Moderator Aus/NZ

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    An interesting video comparing statments between our Prim Minister Tony Abbott and Elon Musk asking the question can you power a Steel Mill with Solar Energy?

    Tony-Abbott-vs-Elon-Musk

    As an Australian I find it quite depressing.
     
  2. Blue heaven

    Blue heaven Member

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    I find it depressing that 3% of the votes went to Tony Abbott.
     
  3. doctorwho

    doctorwho Member

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    Tony Abbott is far more Right than Elon Musk. I'd bet that Elon was more likely to be correct though.
     
  4. ZTrekus

    ZTrekus Member

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    I think Elon Musk would agree with Tony Abott that you could not have a solar powered steel mill UNLESS you also had Tesla PowerPacks ... and that anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

    Elon Musk once described himself as half democratic half republic. His businesses straddle the left and right too, thriving off the republican model with democratic subsidies towards a social ideal. Both sides of politics would agree that saving the planet is a good thing.

    I think, strangely enough, the Pope recently agreed with that sentiment too.
     
  5. deonb

    deonb Active Member

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    In full context:
    "Politically, Musk has described himself as 'half-Democrat, half-Republican'. In his own words 'I'm somewhere in the middle, socially liberal and fiscally conservative.'"

    Being socially liberal/fiscally conservative doesn't mean you're straddling across half democratic/half republican anymore. There hasn't been a difference in spending between democrats & republicans in a while - it's just spend differently. At this point Elon would be more closely aligned with being libertarian, based on what he said.

    Based on Elon's actions though, I would think of him as leaning more toward democrat. I know he donates to both parties - but that's cost of doing business.


    Another thing to think about - I don't know much about Australian politics, but compared to European politics, the U.S. democrats would be considered a right-wing party. So being 'somewhere in the middle' actually makes Elon right-wing in large parts of the world.
     
  6. Blue heaven

    Blue heaven Member

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    This has nothing to do with politics, it's a short video with two men speaking, one who wants to lead the world to a sustainable future and one who wants to take Australia back to the 1950s.
     
  7. Mark E

    Mark E Member

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    And embarrassing. Scary that there are still people out there who fall for the Abbot spin and support him despite it clearly being against their best interests, and those of the country. Even more scary that both major parties are so useless and beholden to vested interests.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think the age of coal and mining was really the 1850s - gold rush, steam engines, Tony Abbot's brain.
     
  8. AudubonB

    AudubonB Mild-mannered Moderator Lord Vetinari*

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    I'm not a Mod for the A-NZ subset but TMC's strictures against political discussions is in place for a good reason - things get ugly really quickly. Please try to observe - thanks.
     
  9. WhiteStar

    WhiteStar Member

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    Well everyone seems to be in agreement...things are already ugly here in Oz politik.
     
  10. Dborn

    Dborn Confirmed

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    Ok, I am not going to make a political comment. However, industry is leaving at a rate of knots. Manufacturing generally is negligible, all having gone to countries where wages are subsistence level. So precisely where are the jobs coming from for a burgeoning population? More taxi drivers and restaurants? At least mining provides jobs which cannot be exported.
     
  11. marchino

    marchino Member

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    #11 marchino, Jun 20, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2015
    Many people here in WA say that "manufacturing is going to China" or "manufacturing is going to low-wage economies". That is certainly true for some sectors, but in others technological acumen and high quality products are important. I give some examples:

    1. The Nissan plant in the UK produces the Leaf and other models, some of which are imported into Australia. Does Nissan UK pay subsistence level wages?
    2. Plenty of other car manufacturers in Europe
    3. TESLA manufactures in California - not a cheap location by any means

    ...and that's just one industry. There are many more. The Australian car industry sank because it was too inward looking. A country of 20 million is not a big enough market. The car makers should have seized on Australia's generally high reputation in Asia (well, not so now, but we know the reason why...) to produce upmarket vehicles that could compete with the Germans and others. We have the fastest growing region in the world on our door step. We should be doing more to exploit that advantage.
     
  12. raynewman

    raynewman Member

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    +1 with that. One of the other problems with the (ex)OZ car industry is owners, unions etc wanted the dollars now and didn't plan for the future (see early OZ GM and current Tesla for how that is done).
     
  13. Mark E

    Mark E Member

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    Holden and Ford here were prevented from exporting effectively to protect their U.S. parents. Germany has good wages, good conditions and a booming manufacturing economy with lots of renewables.
     
  14. Dborn

    Dborn Confirmed

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    Hmmmm. The clothing industry? The steel industry, the petroleum industry? We actually have to send iron ore to China instead of the refined product? OK all of us believe in electron mobility, but let's get real, we need petroleum fuel. Strategically, a total disaster that we have stopped refining and that the biodiesel industry has not taken off. Our wages and conditions have destroyed all these and far more that I have not thought about. I am no economist or even a businessman, but I can see the massive disincentive to employ people. My daughter, a mechanical engineer, could not find a job last year, and in desperation decided to go back to uni to do a phd. Personally, I doubt that will make her any more employable. The jobs requiring that profession are simply not there any longer.
     
  15. AudubonB

    AudubonB Mild-mannered Moderator Lord Vetinari*

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    I certainly haven't any nostrums, but consider this: only a few years ago everybody knew that, because of stratospheric labor costs, outrageous land, etc., prices and a crushing regulatory environment, the one place in North America you absolutely could not set up a manufacturing operation was California. Tesla is now the largest manufacturer in the state - 9,000 manufacturing jobs.
     
  16. renim

    renim Member

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    Most Australians would consider the use of the words Steel Mill to indicate the facility that turns iron ore into iron/steel. In that usage, Abbott is correct.
    The term 'integrated steel mill' is the clearer distinctive.

    Other countries would use the term steel mill to include recycling facilities that recycle the steel. In that useage, Musk is correct.

    The term 'steel mini mill' is the clearer distinctive.


    Currently there are zero electrolytic steel mills in the world. (convert iron ore to iron/steel) but many many electric/gas steel mills that recycle steel. The energy and capital required to operate an electrolytic steel mill is enormous, basically it would multiple the upstream emissions.

    Both are correct because both are talking about different usage of the words steel mill.

    If the aluminium industry could work out how to reduce alumina to aluminium directly (like how iron does with a a blast furnace), the aluminium industry would probably save 4x the upstream energy they use.
     

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