Who would give up free supercharging?

[RGloverii]

I wouldn't mind at all if Tesla reverted back to the original "Free Long Distance" model. Makes perfect sense in my opinion.

There is a Supercharger within about 10 minutes of my job, and I could easily just stop there every 2-3 days, charge my car for free, and NEVER charge at home. Guess how many times I've done that?? NONE. In my mind, it's sort of taking advantage of Tesla, and since I would rather see the company prosper and succeed, I am not interested in that $12 worth of free electricity every few days.

Especially when I think about the commercial companies that leverage Superchargers as a part of their taxi or rental business, it just doesn't really seem "right" to me.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Good point, but if the purchase agreement said free for the life of the car then Tesla should honor that. It's the same kind of thing whether an extended warranty transfers to a second owner. It imparts more value if it transfers and therefore the purchaser may have justified a higher price knowing resale value would be greater and it could be a selling point for for the next buyer.

If it's not spelled out by Tesla such that the original purchaser could have that expectation, then yes, I agree that lifetime free supercharging should end with the original owner. CPOs could also be another story and end the free supercharging cycle right there.

Going back to the OPs original question though, Tesla could offer a "buyout" of the lifetime free supercharging for say a merch credit and let supportive owners take the deal.

No point. The leeches won't take the deal. It's a self-selection problem. The long-term approach will likely be to try to make Superchargers pay per use, but include capital costs in the price of the car. Keeps the charging cost down, but supports natural network growth. Charging not likely to be profitable, so best to focus on good.

 

[SSedan]

Cheaper yes but if you factor in the wait time, then it gets very expensive.

I am still waiting on 3 hours of driving in 15 minutes of charging. That charging I would gladly pay for assuming similar today pricing.

A side note, if you use a Prius, the math comes out closer to supercharging. 50mpg.

Yeah because a Prius is a comparable highway car to a Model S.

I knew the rules when I bought and accept them.

 

[RFernatt]

No point. The leeches won't take the deal. It's a self-selection problem. The long-term approach will likely be to try to make Superchargers pay per use, but include capital costs in the price of the car. Keeps the charging cost down, but supports natural network growth. Charging not likely to be profitable, so best to focus on good.

Yeah, I agree. The uptake would be so few it really wouldn't be worth the hassle for an already stressed Tesla.

Regarding charging profitability, though, Tesla has said that they don't want the charging network to be a profit center. And that's okay if it's driving sales and I think it undoubtedly is at this time. However, they should also not let it generate a loss either and that means recouping maintenance on existing installations, expansion of the network by adding to existing or building new chargers, R&D for faster charging tech, implementing things like solar and energy storage, etc. So, not just the cost of electricity.

I do wish some other manufacturer would come on board to help support the SC network, but I don't think that's likely. However, I was thinking of a Tesla branded adapter that could communicate on the Tesla charging network and would connect other DCFC cars where the tech is compatible. Tesla would have to sell the adapter at an appropriate price (read: not cheap) and the cost of using the SCs (electricity and time) would also have to be priced appropriately. It could pick up a few more paying SC customers and expose them to Tesla. In some crowded areas (CA) I could see that not being too popular, so maybe Tesla also reserves the right to have a restricted SC map that supports the adapter and excludes some of the high traffic stations. All of the SCs around me though are always empty and it would be nice to see them earning some income for the investment.

To use the adapter, someone would have to setup a Tesla account and payment method (now Tesla has marketing info), Tesla knows their charging habits, etc. They get a nice email after a charging session showing what they paid and it says "if you owned a Tesla, this bill would have been $x.xx lower".

 

[tljdesign]

The cost of Supercharging is wayyyy too much. If it's not free, it really de-incentivizes wanting to drive a Tesla cross country. It's cheaper in a lot of gas cars to drive than it is to Supercharge, so no, I would not give it up. If I had to pay for Supercharging, I would not drive a Tesla cross country; it's way too expensive.

If it were more affordable and cheaper than gas cars across the board, then yes. But since it's about the same cost as an average car, no way in hell is it worth the extra time required.

Please provide your mathematical basis for this.

I saved over $2,000 in gas (actual tracking) in my first 12 months of Tesla ownership coming from a ~25mpg similar quality vehicle. Interested to see your basis for this.

 

[ewoodrick]

First, we have to separate people into two groups, those who don't have home charging and those that do.

For those that have home charging, I think the answer is pretty easy, Supercharging is a minimum cost and might as well be free. I've used maybe $50 in 7500 miles.

For those that don't have home charging, it is a little more difficult. These tend to be the ones who clog urban chargers. It is a bigger value for them, but they also stress the system and mark it a lot harder for occasional chargers.

Nissan provides their No Charge to Charge program for 2 years,

I wish that Tesla would charge everyone for it. It helps everyone understand the real value and advantages of EVs.

And it does equalize cost for those of us who do charge at home. Maybe the limited amount of charging option plus a restriction on how close to home you can use it would be a good idea

 

[TexasEV]

Cheaper yes but if you factor in the wait time, then it gets very expensive.

I am still waiting on 3 hours of driving in 15 minutes of charging. That charging I would gladly pay for assuming similar today pricing.

A side note, if you use a Prius, the math comes out closer to supercharging. 50mpg.

Especially when I think about the commercial companies that leverage Superchargers as a part of their taxi or rental business, it just doesn't really seem "right" to me.

Tesla no longer allows this, but has to make an exception for cars sold in the early years before they put commercial use exclusion in the purchase agreement. Eventually those cars will wear out and be removed from service.

 

[MRPLUGIN]

QUOTE="Saimaannorppa, post: 3077861, member: 64931"
You have many ways to support Tesla if you want. E.g. do service every year at SC, 500$ profit each year to Tesla. Buy OEM accessories, high margin. Buy Model 3, without free supercharging.[/QUOTE]

I guess I can just figure out about how much I saved with the free supercharging and buy some apparel every time from Tesla online store for myself or a family member. They get some money and a little advertisement.

 

[MRPLUGIN]

The cost of Supercharging is wayyyy too much. If it's not free, it really de-incentivizes wanting to drive a Tesla cross country. It's cheaper in a lot of gas cars to drive than it is to Supercharge, so no, I would not give it up. If I had to pay for Supercharging, I would not drive a Tesla cross country; it's way too expensive.

If it were more affordable and cheaper than gas cars across the board, then yes. But since it's about the same cost as an average car, no way in hell is it worth the extra time required.

I find this totally false, I spent around $45 for a 1000 miles on a road trip to Vegas a few months back. Even with driving our previous Civic at 40 MPG it would have cost close to twice as much. Yes It takes longer, but I feel the time out of the car after driving 3 hrs is a benefit most times.

 

[Naonak]

False. Completely false.

$110 one way in supercharging costs from Florida to California. Roughly 2500 miles of driving. In an average sedan going 30MPG, that is 84 gallons of gas. At $2.65/gallon average, that is over $225 in gas costs.

Supercharging is literally half the cost of gas.

Or take a 400 mile roadtrip from LA to San Francisco. evtriplanner says youll use ~120kwh. At CA supercharger rates of 26cents/Kwh that is roughly $32.

On a car that gets 30MPG, LA to San Francisco would use 14 gallons of gas. At CA average gas prices of $3.60, thats $50.40 in gas costs.

I see you're in Kansas, its $0.20 a minute to supercharge at 60kw, and $0.10 below 60kw. The average supercharging session of 30 minutes to 80%. $6 assuming a speed above 60kw.

30 minutes is roughly ~200 miles of range. $6 for 200 miles? in a 30MPG car is around 7 gallons, at $2.65/gallon gas is $18.55.

no matter how you do the math, supercharging is still cheaper than gas. period.

False. Completely False.

What kind of POS are you driving that gets 30 MPG? Sure, if you want to drive a V10 Lamborghini across the nation, then it's even CHEAPER to supercharge!!!!!! Yay!

Let's compare real numbers, shall we?

Modern "average" cars get between 40 and 60 MPG. My VW Diesel gets between 45 and 55 MPG. It would use about 50 gallons going your hypothetical 2500 miles. That would be less than $150 in fuel costs to go 2500 miles. It would also take me at LEAST 8 - 10 hours extra to drive in a Tesla that same distance, if not more. I charge about $150/hr for my time in most cases, so, lets be generous and say 5 hours of "wasted" time Supercharging.

That's $150 in fuel, plus another $750 in lost time (it's really closer to $1500 in lost time, but I'm being generous). So for $40 in savings, I can waste 8 hours, or I can drive an ICE car, spend almost half the time driving and pay $40 more. Gosh... which one makes more sense?

Now, this doesn't factor in the Autopilot convenience, etc... but you didn't mention any of that. The fact is, with the cost of Supercharging, it doesn't make a lot of sense to drive a Tesla across the country if you have an alternative, from a purely financial standpoint. There may be other factors that make it favorable to you, but financially, it's absolutely silly if you are paying for Supercharging, as the cost difference between a modern gas car and Supercharging is so small as to be pointless. Additionally, as a side note, you probably spend more than $40 in those 8 hours of extra stop time (food, snacks, etc...) than you save.

Yeah, no. Supercharging to save money is bunk.

 

[Magellan55]

Since when is a VW diesel equal to a Model S? Especially since it's an emissions cheater? How about using a comparable car, like an Audi S7? highway mpg is 24. BMW 650 Grand coupe? 25 mpg. MB CLS 550? 26 mpg. Panamera 4S? 28 mpg. Oh, and these all take premium gas, which is upwards of $4/gal.

 

[dark cloud]

False. Completely False.

What kind of POS are you driving that gets 30 MPG? Sure, if you want to drive a V10 Lamborghini across the nation, then it's even CHEAPER to supercharge!!!!!! Yay!

Let's compare real numbers, shall we?

Modern "average" cars get between 40 and 60 MPG. My VW Diesel gets between 45 and 55 MPG. It would use about 50 gallons going your hypothetical 2500 miles. That would be less than $150 in fuel costs to go 2500 miles. It would also take me at LEAST 8 - 10 hours extra to drive in a Tesla that same distance, if not more. I charge about $150/hr for my time in most cases, so, lets be generous and say 5 hours of "wasted" time Supercharging.

That's $150 in fuel, plus another $750 in lost time (it's really closer to $1500 in lost time, but I'm being generous). So for $40 in savings, I can waste 8 hours, or I can drive an ICE car, spend almost half the time driving and pay $40 more. Gosh... which one makes more sense?

Now, this doesn't factor in the Autopilot convenience, etc... but you didn't mention any of that. The fact is, with the cost of Supercharging, it doesn't make a lot of sense to drive a Tesla across the country if you have an alternative, from a purely financial standpoint. There may be other factors that make it favorable to you, but financially, it's absolutely silly if you are paying for Supercharging, as the cost difference between a modern gas car and Supercharging is so small as to be pointless. Additionally, as a side note, you probably spend more than $40 in those 8 hours of extra stop time (food, snacks, etc...) than you save.

Yeah, no. Supercharging to save money is bunk.

I'm sorry, but this is not a valid argument. You're grabbing at straws here. You can't say your supercharger layover time is worth $150 an hour and work that into the comparison any more than I can say that with that 5 hours I actually pimp myself out while waiting for my car to charge and earn $300 an hour, so I actually make money by driving my car to superchargers.

 

[xyeahtony]

False. Completely False.

What kind of POS are you driving that gets 30 MPG? Sure, if you want to drive a V10 Lamborghini across the nation, then it's even CHEAPER to supercharge!!!!!! Yay!

Let's compare real numbers, shall we?

Modern "average" cars get between 40 and 60 MPG. My VW Diesel gets between 45 and 55 MPG. It would use about 50 gallons going your hypothetical 2500 miles. That would be less than $150 in fuel costs to go 2500 miles. It would also take me at LEAST 8 - 10 hours extra to drive in a Tesla that same distance, if not more. I charge about $150/hr for my time in most cases, so, lets be generous and say 5 hours of "wasted" time Supercharging.

That's $150 in fuel, plus another $750 in lost time (it's really closer to $1500 in lost time, but I'm being generous). So for $40 in savings, I can waste 8 hours, or I can drive an ICE car, spend almost half the time driving and pay $40 more. Gosh... which one makes more sense?

Now, this doesn't factor in the Autopilot convenience, etc... but you didn't mention any of that. The fact is, with the cost of Supercharging, it doesn't make a lot of sense to drive a Tesla across the country if you have an alternative, from a purely financial standpoint. There may be other factors that make it favorable to you, but financially, it's absolutely silly if you are paying for Supercharging, as the cost difference between a modern gas car and Supercharging is so small as to be pointless. Additionally, as a side note, you probably spend more than $40 in those 8 hours of extra stop time (food, snacks, etc...) than you save.

Yeah, no. Supercharging to save money is bunk.

Give it up, nobody agrees with you.

The Average Fuel economy of all motor vehicles sold in the USA is 24.7MPG, not 40-60MPG....The Majority of people own gasoline cars, not diesel cars. So yes, your average roadtrip car is getting 25-30MPG.

30MPG was a generous number. We're comparing a Tesla Model S to a similar high performance luxury Sedan, and i didn't even factor in the cost of premium gasoline.

U.S. vehicle fuel economy rises to record 24.7 mpg: EPA | Reuters

The car with the highest MPG being sold in the USA is the Toyota Prius, at 54 MPG. Nobody is getting that 60MPG "real numbers" that you made up.

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/cars-with-the-best-gas-mileage

Plenty of people in this thread have already stated on the record that their paid supercharging sessions in their teslas is cheaper than ICE vehicles.

Im in one of the top 3 income tax brackets and my time is not worth $150/hour. lol. Quit spewing fake numbers when everyone knows supecharging is cheaper than gasoline. Also who talks like that? My time is worth $150/hr wtf? the obnoxiousness here is outstanding. if you were actually that rich you wouldn't be wasting your time driving at all, you'd be flying across the country.

But since you seem to be out of touch with ICE vehicle fuel economy, here is a list of the top 10 selling vehicles in the USA and their corresponding EPA rated fuel economy. (city/highway)

1. Ford F-series: (f150 gets 20/26MPG)
2. Chevy Silverado (20/23MPG)
3. Dodge Ram 20/29
4. Rav4 23/30
5. Nissan Rogue (26/33)
6. Toyota Camry (29/41)
7. Honda CRV 28/34
8. Honda Civic 32/42
9. Honda Accord 30/38
10. Toyota Corolla 30/40

The 20 best-selling cars and trucks in America

So in conclusion, yes 30MPG is a real number and not made up.

 

[Naonak]

Since when is a VW diesel equal to a Model S? Especially since it's an emissions cheater? How about using a comparable car, like an Audi S7? highway mpg is 24. BMW 650 Grand coupe? 25 mpg. MB CLS 550? 26 mpg. Panamera 4S? 28 mpg. Oh, and these all take premium gas, which is upwards of $4/gal.

Because those cars aren't comparable to a Model S. They are Luxury vehicles with Luxury options, none of which the Tesla has. (see last post) ... If I am driving a vehicle, the top of the line mid-tier brands are about the same as the interior of a Tesla. When you are driving cross-country, performance doesn't really make a difference, thus it's not a factor here. The factor is "what's comfortable to drive," and I can tell you that after 60k+ miles in a Tesla going cross country, they are not nearly as comfortable as true luxury brands, and are right there mid-tier Lexus/Acura/Genesis quality.

Also, Premium fuel is $3, not $4. I don't live in California.

 

[trm2]

The car with the highest MPG being sold in the USA is the Toyota Prius, at 54 MPG. Nobody is getting that 60MPG "real numbers" that you made up.

Once again, the most fuel efficient car being sold in the USA is the toyota prius, which gets 54MPG. The average MPG of all cars sold in the USA is 24.7 MPG. Hardly between 40-60MPG.

The Hyundai Ioniq is the most fuel efficient at 57 City/ 59 Highway. But even that cost more than my free supercharging.

 

[Zythryn]

As I look at Tesla and all they are looking to achieve, I begin to actually feel guilty about free supercharging. They built me the most advanced electric car out there, built a charging network like no other and continue to update my car with new and better features.

If Tesla was rolling in cash and still being able to innovate and change the world, that would be a different story. But they are still a growing company and I would rather pay for my charging if it would help them better all things Tesla. So much so that a trip I was going to take in my MS will probably be in my M3 so I have to pay for my charging.

Some people will thing I am crazy, but that is how I feel. If we can afford the car, we can pay for the energy. At last make it a option for those that may feel the same (if any) I guess.

I hate free supercharging and wish Tesla had stopped it years ago.
It was necessary in the first few years of the Model S.
Now, all it does is increase supercharger congestion.

Supercharging costs less than gas in most cases. As a two Model 3 owner family, we have no issues paying our way.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Regarding charging profitability, though, Tesla has said that they don't want the charging network to be a profit center. And that's okay if it's driving sales and I think it undoubtedly is at this time. However, they should also not let it generate a loss either and that means recouping maintenance on existing installations, expansion of the network by adding to existing or building new chargers, R&D for faster charging tech, implementing things like solar and energy storage, etc. So, not just the cost of electricity.

I think of it this way. Do you want to try to make money by:
(1) Selling a $42k car with a 10% margin at purchase?
(2) Selling less than 1200Wh of charging per car per year to those cars?

I'm not suggesting that Tesla will not care about the cost of the Supercharger network. But I think that limited losses per car are OK.

Assuming:
1) Average Tesla vehicle uses weighted 12000kWh of Supercharging during its lifetime (allowing for some use as alternative to home charging, taking into account that high utilization of Superchargers would better than low utilization due to overheads and demand charges).
2) 10% of $42k ASP as profit

Then if losses are $L/kWh and fraction S of sales are due to the quality of the Supercharger network, Tesla profits if

L x 12000 < S x 4200

L < S x 4200 / 12000 = S x 0.35

In other words, using those assumptions, for every 2.858% of sales driven by the Supercharger network, Tesla would be able to lose $0.01/kWh overall on Supercharging and still profit.

 

[morrisdl]

Agreed, that FREE supercharging 's real $ value is way over estimated by our human emotions. I also think lifetime (of the car) supercharging helps prop up used car prices. We finally did a 5,700 mile cross country road trip this summer because it was "FREE"! Average stop time was 30min twice a day; usually around lunch and dinner time. I can count on one hand the number of times we waited for the car to finish charging. Zero productivity time loss while charging, compared to pumping GAS.

Previous car was a Cayenne Turbo - I would consider generally comparable to the P85 in space, price, luxury and performance. Cayenne gets 19MPG on 93oct premium. Cayenne would have cost $1,100 more to drive, but I thought it would have been more and was a big physiological barrier to undertaking this amazing trip in years past.

According to Teslafi:
Total Miles Driven 5704.3
Rated Miles Used 6,697.90
Efficiency 85.17 %
Time Driven 93.51 Hours
kWh Used 1983.68 kWh
Wh/Mile 348 Wh
Free Electric (@$0.115) $228.12
Average Temp 84.03 F
Gas Value (@$3.486) $1,104.73

 

[cmalinowski]

Nobody ever seems to care/complain about the car dealers that give away a year's worth of gas for free as incentive. Or any other car rebates that manufacturers give away. Why pick on Tesla for doing a fraction of what the others do in order to drive customers to purchase? Heck, many owners become repeat buyers, so incentivising a purchase with the hopes of many more makes decent business sense to me.

Ah well, people gotta complain about something or they tend to feel left out of situations or something.

 

[bob_p]

Going back to Tesla's original intent to provide free "long distance" charging, it really was never free. A portion of the purchase price likely included Tesla's expected lifetime cost (supercharger installations and electricity), which Tesla charged $2500 for some early Model S versions.

It was never "free" - it was bundled.

By discontinuing the free charging, Tesla has essentially increased the purchase price by no longer including the free electricity (which could have been around $1000 for lifetime long distance electricity).