Whoa Holy Phantom Braking

[petechatelain]

Hello everyone,
Well, we just returned home from a 3200 mile road trip from Ottawa Ontario to Fort Lauderdale. Our model S performed brilliantly except for numerous phantom braking which put is in serious danger of being rear ended on the interstate highways. At least 5-6 times per day, the car would brake from 75 mph to 50 for no reason at all. This happened while on Auto Pilot and on regular cruise control. I would have thought that Interstate 95 and others would have been thoroughly mapped by now. It is my opinions that road elevation while driving by on/off ramps and bridges triggered the issue most of the time but sometimes it would brake while no trafic or obstructions were present.

I haven’t heard if this problem is being fixed but my 3 previous ICE cars with adaptive cruise control all performed much safer. Does anyone know if Tesla will be able to fix this?
Pete

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Tesla doesn't know, so how on earth would we?

 

[bishoppeak]

It would be nice to have the option to bypass that "safety feature" until it's working properly

 

[Ande]

It is one of the special features of ap >1.0
Just wait for the day they fix it... Nothing else to do.

 

[gnxs]

I get the same thing (using cruise control) almost any time I travel a fair distance on either I-95 or the FL Turnpike in S Florida. I no longer use it on crowded roads for fear of being rear-ended. It happened twice late the other night on a completely deserted FL turnpike and the braking was fairly aggressive. Hoping they can tweak this in a future update. I still haven't been able to determine what might be setting it off.

 

[avdk]

Our Tesla model s Long Range is just a week old and also has the bad habit of braking unexpectedly while the adaptive cruise control is on. I would be very pleased if it was possible to shut off the "adaptive" part of the cruise control. The way it behaves now is very annoying and unsafe.

 

[Senza Benzina]

Sorry, should have responded sooner. We have a 2015 85D and this happens to us....oh....every now and then. It always happens on cruise control. We believe it has to do with the car sensing that there is something directly in front of it and slowing down to avoid it. We joke that our car is afraid of the color white. A white semi will confuse it, and a sudden sun glare off the back of a glossy semi will cause a breaking. We travel on interstates, on cruise control, and as we approach large trucks before changing lanes this can occur. We have gotten used to our cars behavior, and we have managed to alter ours.

 

[Lasttoy]

Mine always happens when backing up. At least once a day. And no I'm not raising up out of the seat, I've had car for 4 yrs. It just started when v10 was loaded.

 

[ShawnA]

Hi Pete,

What are the details of your car - AP - FSD - HW 2.5 or HW 3 and your software level...?

I made nearly the same round trip from South Michigan to Delray Beach, Florida and back.
I have MCU2 March 2018 Model X FSD HW3 in early December and software with visualizations.
I think it was 2019.40.50.7

I may have had one or two phantom braking incidents during the whole 2700 mile round trip.
It seemed to occur with a nearly square sign directly over the passing lane.
It was an overcast day so it was not a distinct shadow but that is what we thought caused it.

Other than that it drove very well. NOA tracked the lanes very well.
Very little ping pong - I found out on the way home that the lighter I held the wheel
the less chance of ping pong.

I was only "busted" one time for hands not on wheel - They were on the wheel but I was not
applying enough torque to satisfy the vehicle.
I was "busted for running a red light - the car misunderstood the left turn lane red light
as belonging to my passing lane. I understood it but it was fairly close...

My only complaint was that the car liked to remain in the "passing lane"
whether that was the 2nd lane of 2 or the 2nd lane of three.
I use "confirm" for lane change and "mad Max" for aggression level.

It worked great and fast through Atlanta in the HOV lanes.

I hope you are going to get the new hardware and software soon...
You will like it...

Shawn

Edit: Update - I used I-75 for most of the trip and the Florida Turnpike in Florida.

 

[cruiserlarry]

I drive the same 80 mile route every weekday for almost 35 years. I've had phantom braking issues with AP / TACC before, but since the last 2 upgrades, the few incidents I have experienced have become more severe in their effect. It doesn't matter what lane I'm in now r if there is any traffic at all - when it occurs, the car will jarringly slow down from 70-75 to 50 without warning, and then slowly resume to get to the preset speed (AP / TACC does not disconnect). If someone was close behind me, I'd have likely been hit.

Additionally, the phantom slowdown when passing an exit while on NOA or AP has become more frequent, more severe, and happens in almost any lane now. Previously, this phantom exit speed issue only occurred when driving in the far right or 2nd from right lanes, and only on one specific exit. Now, it occurs in almost every lane, and when passing many off-ramps.

I love most of the improvements we get with upgrades, but I don't understand why the AP / TACC system ping-pongs from good to bad so frequently, instead of a slow progression towards perfection...very frustrating at this point.

 

[RUK MINI]

I drive the same 80 mile route every weekday for almost 35 years. I've had phantom braking issues with AP / TACC before, but since the last 2 upgrades, the few incidents I have experienced have become more severe in their effect. It doesn't matter what lane I'm in now r if there is any traffic at all - when it occurs, the car will jarringly slow down from 70-75 to 50 without warning, and then slowly resume to get to the preset speed (AP / TACC does not disconnect). If someone was close behind me, I'd have likely been hit.

Additionally, the phantom slowdown when passing an exit while on NOA or AP has become more frequent, more severe, and happens in almost any lane now. Previously, this phantom exit speed issue only occurred when driving in the far right or 2nd from right lanes, and only on one specific exit. Now, it occurs in almost every lane, and when passing many off-ramps.

I love most of the improvements we get with upgrades, but I don't understand why the AP / TACC system ping-pongs from good to bad so frequently, instead of a slow progression towards perfection...very frustrating at this point.

You may have noticed on the panel that every time when phantom braking happens the displayed speed limit drops from, say 70 to 50, or even a "blank". IMO the car then decides to rapidly drop to the new limit.

The question is, why on earth, does this "smart" car think that the speed limit has changed when you and I know it hasn't. One theory is that it assumes you are on the exit lane due to GPS error (you'll find it in the manual under TACC!). I find this hard to believe for multiple reasons, but I won't go into it.

My theory is that the map software has erroneous or blank values for speed limits at certain locations. (Could these locations have had construction happen at some time in recent past??). And until these are updated we are stuck.

If there is one item that is absolutely frustrating in a $90k car, it is this stupid cruise control. There is no setting in the car for a "dumb" cruise control, which is what I want until this thing is perfected.

 

[cruiserlarry]

@RUK MINI Normally when the speed limit changes downward suddenly, as in the case of tight corners, speed limit changes, or, for me, phantom exits, the car slows down by stopping acceleration - but it does not initially apply the brakes. The phantom braking experiences I've have involve a very sudden aggressive application of the brakes, which is jarring to the driver, especially when no obvious hazards exist on the road. This is an AP / sensor issue IMO, and eventually we'll hear of someone getting rear-ended when it occurs - and I hope it's not me.

 

[petechatelain]

Hi Pete,

What are the details of your car - AP - FSD - HW 2.5 or HW 3 and your software level...?

I made nearly the same round trip from South Michigan to Delray Beach, Florida and back.
I have MCU2 March 2018 Model X FSD HW3 in early December and software with visualizations.
I think it was 2019.40.50.7

I may have had one or two phantom braking incidents during the whole 2700 mile round trip.
It seemed to occur with a nearly square sign directly over the passing lane.
It was an overcast day so it was not a distinct shadow but that is what we thought caused it.

Other than that it drove very well. NOA tracked the lanes very well.
Very little ping pong - I found out on the way home that the lighter I held the wheel
the less chance of ping pong.

I was only "busted" one time for hands not on wheel - They were on the wheel but I was not
applying enough torque to satisfy the vehicle.
I was "busted for running a red light - the car misunderstood the left turn lane red light
as belonging to my passing lane. I understood it but it was fairly close...

My only complaint was that the car liked to remain in the "passing lane"
whether that was the 2nd lane of 2 or the 2nd lane of three.
I use "confirm" for lane change and "mad Max" for aggression level.

It worked great and fast through Atlanta in the HOV lanes.

I hope you are going to get the new hardware and software soon...
You will like it...

Shawn

Edit: Update - I used I-75 for most of the trip and the Florida Turnpike in Florida.

Hi Shawn, it is a 2019 P100D with HW3, I just completed the latest upgrade, took her out for a spin (the only thing I can do during this social distancing time). Anyway, still getting some phantom braking, even on 2 lane highways. I think the elevation changes are to blame for some of this problem, although it sometimes happens on a flat, straight part of the road. Hopefully Tesla will be able to fix this soon...give me my old adaptive cruise control in my old ICE car anytime.

 

[strider]

...give me my old adaptive cruise control in my old ICE car anytime.

Give me a regular "hold a set speed" cruise control anytime.....

 

[CaryRx]

It's funny to hear all of you with AP and/or FSD talk about the pitfalls of the emerging technology, as I drive my 2013 MS85 with no AP and not even adaptive cruise contro - just regular "set a speed" cruise control! I bought my MS last year, used, with only 30K miles on it, flawless condition, and I LOVE IT!! I admit I didn't do a whole lot of research before buying it, mostly made an impulse buy because I have a 100 mile round trip commute in the Bay Area, and drove an SUV getting about 20 MPG on a good day... with gas prices hovering around $4.30/gallon, I was spending $450-$500/month on gas. I got rid of my SUV, bought the Model S and have ZERO cost for fuel (Solar roof w/6000kW extra capacity/yr) and LFSC (which I don't use much of). I have much more fun with the Tessla than with an SUV. Now that I know a lot more about Tesslas, I am really envious of the range of the current Model S LRs, and the AP/FSD on MS/M3/MYs. So, though I love my 2013 MS, I'm eying a loaded M3 or MY for later this year.

Then I can complain about AP/FSD craziness with you all!!

 

[strider]

It's funny to hear all of you with AP and/or FSD talk about the pitfalls of the emerging technology, as I drive my 2013 MS85 with no AP and not even adaptive cruise contro - just regular "set a speed" cruise control! I bought my MS last year, used, with only 30K miles on it, flawless condition, and I LOVE IT!!

Tell me about it. If they would have let us upgrade our P85 battery to 100kWh we would have done that. We have friends that we visit often that are 106 miles away and we couldn't make the round trip on a single charge (the SC in their town is 30 minutes away so it would add over an hour to the trip). The S100D can do it with range to spare.

 

[CaryRx]

Tell me about it. If they would have let us upgrade our P85 battery to 100kWh we would have done that. We have friends that we visit often that are 106 miles away and we couldn't make the round trip on a single charge (the SC in their town is 30 minutes away so it would add over an hour to the trip). The S100D can do it with range to spare.

That's a mess that Tesla won't let you upgrade to a 100kW battery. I wonder if there's any good reason for that, like there's incompatible cooling mechanisms, or something else, or if it's just that they want to force you into buying a new car?

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Rather than complain here, has ANYONE in this thread ever submitted a Bug Report to Tesla?

These systems are still in Beta; please help them out.

Just use your voice command button, state, "Bug Report: Phantom Braking Event."

The world will thank you . . . .

 

[strider]

That's a mess that Tesla won't let you upgrade to a 100kW battery. I wonder if there's any good reason for that, like there's incompatible cooling mechanisms, or something else, or if it's just that they want to force you into buying a new car?

There's no technical reason. Some of the hackers here have done it. Tesla just don't want to dedicate the resources to building a program. I understand the reasoning, and in the future they will have no choice as the cells they used in the 85 batteries will no longer be available and they'll have to use newer cells. While they could put fewer new cells in to keep the capacity at 85, it would be easier to just install a 100 since they will have lots of those around.

 

[gavine]

Whenever my car phantom-brakes, I immediately hit the accelerator to override it. While not ideal, this at least mitigates the possibility of being rear-ended.

I find that most of my phantom-braking happens when a car ahead of me in an adjacent lane starts to swerve into my lane. Even if the car is pretty far away. As soon as one of their tires compromises the line, my car brakes pretty hard.