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Why a 215 mi range?

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I actually see plenty of motorways listed by country in that list with a speed of 130km/h just as he described.

There's also posted speeds and the speed traffic actually moves at. Try doing the posted 70mph on the M1 during fast travel times and see how that does for you.

But far be it from me to intercede when someone from the USA tries to tell a European what their highway speeds are like. :rolleyes:
 
I actually see plenty of motorways listed by country in that list with a speed of 130km/h just as he described.

There's also posted speeds and the speed traffic actually moves at. Try doing the posted 70mph on the M1 during fast travel times and see how that does for you.

But far be it from me to intercede when someone from the USA tries to tell a European what their highway speeds are like. :rolleyes:


An ironically uppity attitude on an American website, waiting on the American car to arrive in Europe. ;)
 
No, Elon said that the cheapest model would be minimum 215 EPA range. That is a careful statement which totally ignores 'real world'.
And Elon Musk has said, before the Model ☰ Reveal Part I, that it was absolutely necessary that a 200 mile range, in a realistic fashion, is achieved with Model ☰. 200 miles minimum, while driving normally -- not when hypermiling at substandard speeds, or in perfect weather, or only on flat ground. That is his stated concept of 'Real World' range.

But should it?
No. I will never argue in favor of anything being 'brainless'. Easy? Sure. But lobotomized, automatic, or sleep walking...? NO. The world is a better place when people think.

Let's take I-90, this is a full cross-country interstate. If Tesla determines that its predicted fleet needs 3000 chargers along that length (pulling a number from the air), should those chargers be in 20 stations 150 miles apart, 60 stations 50 miles apart, or 3,000 stations 1 mile apart? Clearly that last is wrong, but I don't see how 20 stations are better than 60. There are some fixed costs that push the optimum toward fewer, larger stations, but customer convenience and safety push the other way. Since I have no idea what those fixed costs are, and can't imagine them being overwhelming, I see
This hypothetical seems to be completely off the rails (yes, on the crazy train :D ). Also, I suspect you didn't quite finish that last sentence. Something more should appear after "...I see..." it seems.

But, yeah... Tesla Motors will determine the dispersal of Superchargers to cover the needs of the cars they build. In some places, they will be very dense, to provide for those owners who live in urban areas. In some places they will be rather frequent, to take care of popular routes. But in most places, Superchargers will be spaced so that they allow for easy access over a given terrain, in the weather conditions observed for the area, while still meeting the needs of the traffic that flows through that area.

Tesla needs to build SC for the current fleet, as well as the upcoming fleet, (and hopefully the non-Tesla fleet as well). Nor do I see minimum range constantly increasing. It is an engineering trade off, and Tesla is on the side of more cars, rather than more range. I don't envision a lot of 500 mile range vehicles, particularly if we get sensible about other things as well.
The current fleet of Tesla Motors' Supercharger enabled vehicles is all capable of 200+ miles of range. Every single one of them. Not some, not half, but ALL of them. So, a Supercharger network with locations spaced 150 miles apart is just fine, even during inclement weather conditions. Plus, it seems that in high speed areas of the US Interstate, Tesla Motors intends to build out the Superchargers at around 80-to-90 miles apart.

The minimum range of the majority of ICE vehicles has been steadily increasing since 1976, due to the EPA mandated Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) requirements. Those who insist that ICE is 'better' that EV, and go so far as to state that ICE will 'ALWAYS be BETTER' often point out the extreme cases of range that can be achieved. Yes, it is a rather disingenuous point, because those very same gearheads also hate to be reminded that they were against the CAFE regulations, and improved fuel economy, and the emissions controls, and the computer controls, and every other advance of the past forty years that allowed ICE to remain viable.

Though EVs are well above current CAFE standards, they do lag behind in range. The idea is to make sure that there is no remaining argument in favor of ICE. So faster charging and battery swap were introduced. And Performance of EV has been proven to demolish ICE in most Real World applications. So, the remaining benchmarks are Top Speed and Range. There is no place other than race tracks in the US to consider cruising at 300 kph (186 MPH) or faster for any great length of time. So, that leaves Range as the final hurdle to prove once and for all the dominance of EVs.

Sure, an 85 kWh capacity is about the same as 2.5 gallons of gasoline in energy potential. There aren't any Real World passenger cars that will take you over 250 miles on 2.5 gallons of gas. And even a Prius would get you only half that distance on that quantity of fuel. That should be enough to prove the point, but it isn't, because a Prius may burn more gas, but can travel a much further distance.

For the point to be proven so that no one has any argument at all, there must come a time when a fully electric vehicle not only matches, but greatly surpasses the range of ICE vehicles. Once a battery pack has a capacity that allows for the energy equivalent of 5 gallons of gasoline to be held in an affordable EV, it is over. And once that improves to allow the energy equivalent of 10 gallons or more, people will be truly amazed that they ever even considered using ICE as a primary form of transportation.

As battery technology improves, fewer battery cells will be needed to contain a given capacity. Thus, the cost for battery cells per car will go down, though the capacity goes up. So the electric cars will have battery packs that weigh less and provide more range. There is no reason for this to stop.

Why would Tesla ever build a Supercharger where there was no demand? Given demand why would all of that demand necessarily go to some other charger? Not every person is starting from the same place and going on the same journey. Taking the I-90 example above, why would everyone suddenly visit only odd numbered SC, and not even numbered ones? That's nuts, especially when they know the wait at the even numbered ones is less.
Tesla Motors shouldn't build Superchargers where there is no demand. I say that they won't. My point is that too many are arguing that they should do so anyway, and that is WRONG. Several Tesla Enthusiasts have joined with Tesla Naysayers and have stated they want Superchargers at every exit, or every 15 miles, or every 30 miles, or every 50 miles -- in every direction, on every road, street, or highway throughout the entire United States of America. I firmly disagree. Because though that would be extremely convenient, it would also be a waste of resources, both physically and financially.

People choose the places they stop while traveling for various reasons. Maybe they like the food, shopping, or amenities at one location more than others. Maybe they think one site is more secure, less 'seedy' than another. Maybe they do so out of pure habit. Maybe they like the view. But along popular routes, there are always stops that are more popular with travelers than others. And at some of the places they stop, because they are popular, the service and the wait may be longer. The 'why' may change from one site to another, but people will stop there anyway if they determine the experience they crave is 'worth it'. And sure, some will choose the opposite strategy and just stop at the least popular locations to avoid crowds and waiting as a priority.

When travelling cross country, I would always stop at Carrow's on the East side of El Paso. On my way to Mississippi, I'd stop there for Dinner. On my way to Los Angeles, I'd stop there for Breakfast. Since that Carrow's is now closed, I now stop to eat at the Cracker Barrel on the West side of El Paso instead.

The electric fleet is going to be doubling in size at least nine times in the next decade or two. Chargers will need to be matching that at least somewhat closely.
That means that Tesla Motors has a decade or two to REMAIN ahead of the curve. Because, their Supercharger network is already ahead of the pace. There is no reason to expect they will fall behind. Especially when the entire Supercharger network that existed through March 31, 2016 is due to be DOUBLED by the end of 2017. And the majority of owners will charge at home or at work for the duration.

Thank you kindly.
You are always most welcome.
 
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Except out here on the East Coast, they've been putting some of the SC's in rest stops along major highways, like the Jersey Turnpike, so you're still going to get some of that "road trip atmosphere" anyway.
Indeed. I believe that some SHEETZ locations already feature J1772 chargers on site. And if you watch closely, it seems a lot of the Supercharger locations that Bjørn Nyland stops at in Europe are in close proximity to SHELL stations.
 
The current fleet of Tesla Motors' Supercharger enabled vehicles is all capable of 200+ miles of range. Every single one of them. Not some, not half, but ALL of them. So, a Supercharger network with locations spaced 150 miles apart is just fine, even during inclement weather conditions. Plus, it seems that in high speed areas of the US Interstate, Tesla Motors intends to build out the Superchargers at around 80-to-90 miles apart.

The minimum range of the majority of ICE vehicles has been steadily increasing since 1976, due to the EPA mandated Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) requirements. Those who insist that ICE is 'better' that EV, and go so far as to state that ICE will 'ALWAYS be BETTER' often point out the extreme cases of range that can be achieved. Yes, it is a rather disingenuous point, because those very same gearheads also hate to be reminded that they were against the CAFE regulations, and improved fuel economy, and the emissions controls, and the computer controls, and every other advance of the past forty years that allowed ICE to remain viable.
I must admit to the conviction that posts that tell Tesla what to do should always include, at a minimum, "I am willing to PAY for .."
 
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No, Elon said that the cheapest model would be minimum 215 EPA range. That is a careful statement which totally ignores 'real world'.
...
Thank you kindly.

No, Musk and Straubel have stated that the ≡ will get at least 200+ real world miles. Here's a link to the first time he said it, during the End of Range anxiety Q& A

Here's where I first read about it:
Musk: Tesla Model III Must Have 200 Miles “In Real World” - Gas 2

*direct link to audio, listen at 16:30.
http://audio.transportevolved.com/TeslaPressConfMarch19.mp3

I've heard him say it a couple of other times since then, but It took me 25 minutes to find this one, so I'm not going to search for more references. The point is, they'll be delivered with at least 200 miles of range in the real world. And this will be for the cheapest base model ≡.
 
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I actually see plenty of motorways listed by country in that list with a speed of 130km/h just as he described.

There's also posted speeds and the speed traffic actually moves at. Try doing the posted 70mph on the M1 during fast travel times and see how that does for you.

But far be it from me to intercede when someone from the USA tries to tell a European what their highway speeds are like. :rolleyes:
I think his point was that most speed limits in Europe is not 130km/h. Similar to how here in California, that while the highest posted speed limit is 70mph and there are plenty of highways with 70mph limits, most highways have 65mph limits.
 
No, Musk and Straubel have stated that the ≡ will get at least 200+ real world miles. Here's a link to the first time he said it, during the End of Range anxiety Q& A

Here's where I first read about it:
Musk: Tesla Model III Must Have 200 Miles “In Real World” - Gas 2

*direct link to audio, listen at 16:30.
http://audio.transportevolved.com/TeslaPressConfMarch19.mp3

I've heard him say it a couple of other times since then, but It took me 25 minutes to find this one, so I'm not going to search for more references. The point is, they'll be delivered with at least 200 miles of range in the real world. And this will be for the cheapest base model ≡.
I'm not sure if you two are necessarily in disagreement. Elon was very clear the 215 referred to EPA miles, and when he says 200, he refers to "real world". However, the subtle part is he has never said 215 miles "real world".
 
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This hypothetical seems to be completely off the rails (yes, on the crazy train :D ).

I'll be happy to show you the highway. :) So the number I pulled from the air is obviously wrong, but that leaves the main question. What is the optimal spacing versus size? You seem sure you know what that optimal point is, but you haven't communicated the evidence that gave you that surety. 150 miles could only give 65 miles of range after one leaves the highway, in the best conditions. Driving in the wrong direction is not going to fly.

There is a supercharger about 50 miles from me, but it is almost that many miles out of my way for the vast majority of the driving I do.

Thank you kindly.
 
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I guess I am more concerned (here) about what he says about what the Model 3 will get, rather than he said about what it must have. One is a promise about an actual car that he has actually built (2 of), rather than a design goal, for a car he has in his head.

Nor am I sure yet what Elon thinks is the conversion of EPA to real world.

Thank you kindly.
 
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Indeed. I believe that some SHEETZ locations already feature J1772 chargers on site. And if you watch closely, it seems a lot of the Supercharger locations that Bjørn Nyland stops at in Europe are in close proximity to SHELL stations.


I'm a little further up, so I don't get Sheetz around me.

MA is looking to pass a bill encouraging more EV friendly city planning, such as EV-only parking, and I imagine some businesses and hopefully cities and towns, take that and run with it as far as charging stations.

I've seen the occasional town (sadly nowhere near me) that even has a ChaDeMO in the wild. There are a few in VA that come to mind (Norfolk area and out by Roanoke), as well as at least 2 destination chargers owned by government entities in the Richmond area.

It will take time, but people are catching on.

I expect things to pick up speed in the early half of 2018, when Model 3's begin trickling in to the Eastern time zone.

There is an off-chance that there are some proactive civic leaders out there that would like to get ahead of this....but I won't hold my breath.
:rolleyes:


(but I should give credit to NJ, for working out SC placement along the Turnpike with Tesla. as an I-95 corridor traveler, that stretch is huge to have "plugged in")
 
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I'll be happy to show you the highway. :) So the number I pulled from the air is obviously wrong, but that leaves the main question. What is the optimal spacing versus size? You seem sure you know what that optimal point is, but you haven't communicated the evidence that gave you that surety. 150 miles could only give 65 miles of range after one leaves the highway, in the best conditions. Driving in the wrong direction is not going to fly.

There is a supercharger about 50 miles from me, but it is almost that many miles out of my way for the vast majority of the driving I do.

Thank you kindly.
Uhm... The Highway to [HECK]...? No, thank you! :cool:

150 miles apart seems to be the general metric for how Superchargers had been spaced from each other for a while. It is right at 75% of the Model S 60's 208 mile range, and just about 70% of the 215 mile range for Model ☰. It has been my observation that those who want to 'Drive It Like You Stole It!' consider the 'Real World' range to be no more than 70% of EPA rated range.

I'm not at all sure what you mean by the sentence, "150 miles could only give 65 miles of range after one leaves the highway, in the best conditions." Could you explain it to me, please? I don't get how having Superchargers 150 miles apart from each other would only allow you 65 miles to use.

Personally, I'm hoping that the EPA Certified Range for Model ☰ in base form is between 225-to-250 miles. The proliferation of Superchargers and Destination Chargers should be able to fill a bunch of perceived 'holes' out there. I expect those who would regularly drive to 'The Ends of the Earth' realize that if they do not have a charging option on site, they should probably wait until an EV exists with at least a 350 mile 'Real World' range before buying one.
 
Uhm... The Highway to [HECK]...? No, thank you! :cool:

Hey! Boston is actually a nice place. ...when it doesn't snow 8 feet. :D

I'm not at all sure what you mean by the sentence, "150 miles could only give 65 miles of range after one leaves the highway, in the best conditions." Could you explain it to me, please?

Around here with have these things called 'surface roads', they are like highways, but only one lane per direction. I often drive for hundreds of miles on these roads. To visit my SIL's father's place I would need to travel 40 miles in the wrong direction, and then take a horrible route instead of the beautiful coastal route. Adding 50 minutes to driving time.

But really you haven't given a single piece of evidence that 150 miles is the optimal distance. Or evidence that adding more SC stations is more work than doubling the range of millions of cars. That just doesn't sound sensible.

Thank you kindly.
 

Well, they are just completely wrong...

For instance, Netherlands and Luxembourg also have 130 km/h, not 120 km/h... These are the countries I've driven through in a last couple of months.

I am also sure about Hungary being 130, not 120 (just checked here Google Maps ;))... Effectively, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Austria, etc. have 130 km/h.
More accurate list can be found here.

Speed limits by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

--> if one wants to have a proper range on European motorways, bigger battery is necessary.
 
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There is a supercharger about 50 miles from me, but it is almost that many miles out of my way for the vast majority of the driving I do.

Same here. I never use it. Since I charge at home, it is too close. I don't use any superchargers near me. The one on my way was 230 miles away. Perfect. Now they have another one on my way, at 130 miles, so I can go faster if I want.

But the point is, where should they put chargers? In my limited experience (since Model S first came out), there were NO superchargers, and every few months, every year, there are many many more. If you think they should have one directly on your preferred route, chances are that they will. Doesn't do any good to worry about it.

For the first few years, we used a lot of RV parks. This last trip (5000 miles), not one. One long jump of an equivalent 280 miles. Probably in a year or so, that will be only old war stories.
 
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I guess I am more concerned (here) about what he says about what the Model 3 will get, rather than he said about what it must have. One is a promise about an actual car that he has actually built (2 of), rather than a design goal, for a car he has in his head.

Nor am I sure yet what Elon thinks is the conversion of EPA to real world.

A promise? Really? You're quite a character to figure that a businessman is somehow held to anything he says about what he would like to happen. And here again, why the worry? If he makes his target, everyone will be happy. If some are unable to be happy, they should not buy Tesla. But worrying in public does no good at all. Unless you are interested in doing no good. Hmmmm.
 
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