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Why AP 2.0 Won't Be Here Soon, and It Won't Be What You Think It Is

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Finally, I also think it is difficult to predict the rate of machine learning of this 11 teraflop monster. Humans have a tendency to extrapolate from current experience to the future - witness the fact that investors continually buy high and sell low.

It's quite possible the learning will happen faster than we predict.

Contrary to the opinion of others here, I think it's extraordinary that the learning has happened so fast - given that Tesla vision started from zero six months ago and is close to achieving parity with a system that used neural nets Mobileye refined over many years. And it's still using only 2 of 8 cameras and presumably a fraction of its processing capacity.

Personally I think we are in for pleasant surprises over the next 12 months.
 
As with all purchases, buyer beware. Do your research. For me, part of research when considering a Tesla was:
  1. Reading Elon's biography to better understand his methods/madness/timelines.
  2. Joining this wonderful website and develing deep into all opinions.
Those two things have kept my eyes wide open and my expectations realistic. I feel that Elon is trying to give us what we want as quickly/safely as he can. But it's a complicated problem. The great news, as I see it, is that the car is an absolute blast to drive right now and it keeps getting better. Never fails to put a smile on my face. I have a 4-mile commute and I've still managed to drive over 5,000 miles in the first 14 weeks. Love, love, love it.
 
As with all purchases, buyer beware. Do your research. For me, part of research when considering a Tesla was:
  1. Reading Elon's biography to better understand his methods/madness/timelines.
  2. Joining this wonderful website and develing deep into all opinions.
Those two things have kept my eyes wide open and my expectations realistic. I feel that Elon is trying to give us what we want as quickly/safely as he can. But it's a complicated problem. The great news, as I see it, is that the car is an absolute blast to drive right now and it keeps getting better. Never fails to put a smile on my face. I have a 4-mile commute and I've still managed to drive over 5,000 miles in the first 14 weeks. Love, love, love it.


Amen to that. My commute is 44 miles and I actually look forward to it each day and love congestion. Really enjoy being in the car.
 
Finally, I also think it is difficult to predict the rate of machine learning of this 11 teraflop monster. Humans have a tendency to extrapolate from current experience to the future - witness the fact that investors continually buy high and sell low.

It's quite possible the learning will happen faster than we predict.

Contrary to the opinion of others here, I think it's extraordinary that the learning has happened so fast - given that Tesla vision started from zero six months ago and is close to achieving parity with a system that used neural nets Mobileye refined over many years. And it's still using only 2 of 8 cameras and presumably a fraction of its processing capacity.

Personally I think we are in for pleasant surprises over the next 12 months.


This logic is so flawed it amazes me. In-fact i have seen it alot over reddit and electrek that i sometimes wonder about Tesla fans. Literally what you are saying is that because I can build an impressive graph calculator in half an hour right now. It means that i did an extraordinary thing that took Texas Instruments 2 decades to do?

What's off in the logic? Oh wait, maybe the fact I used all the technological innovation from the last two decade to be able to do what i did in the fraction of the time. Its not to the credence of my intelligence but what others have done.

The first Darpa driver-less car grand challenge in 2013 for example saw no team complete (infact no team went more than 7 miles) and the 2005 challenge saw only 5 teams complete it.

There you had hundreds of teams from different universities sponsor by dozens of companies.
These teams had access to millions of dollars of sensors. Each team had an average 10-15 Lidars which cost over $100,000 each. They also had to write millions of lines of code just to complete a simple task.

Compare that to today where you can do a magnitude more than what that challenge required with a $10 dollars forward facing camera and a smartphone running around 100 lines of code.

The PBS Grand Challenge Documentary Video is a good watch.


"The red team robot has on the order of a million lines of computer codes, even so they do very simply reasoning about the world, they look for flat spots, flat is good, drive on it."

Think about it, millions of lines of code just to do something simple vs 100 lines of code.
millions in sensors vs 1 ten dollar camera.
Trunk full of computers vs a smartphone.

one forward camera and a few lines of code today leads to

technological innovation comes from academia not from private corporations.
Nvidia created their self driving car in a month, Geohut for example in a couple months.
Thats because of the already scientific breakthrough in machine learning which started around 2012.

Here's for example the starting of use of deep learning at google.

machine-intelligence-at-google-scale-tensorflow-8-638.jpg



Infact just 8 years ago "Even the most sophisticated computers can't tell a dog from a cat"

Chris Bishop: Even the most sophisticated computers can't tell a dog

infact the best state of the art computer vision we had couldn't tell a building from a tree. The best real time SOA speed limit classifier we had only had accuracy of around 50%.

We finally saw breakthrough in computer vision with more research and use of deep learning in 2012.
In Artificial Intelligence Breakthrough, Google Computers Teach Themselves To Spot Cats on YouTube

Today we can distinguish cats from dogs with over 99% accuracy.
Dogs vs. Cats | Kaggle
Even more amazing, we can attains that type of accuracy on every other category of classification.
Things we take for granted today; object detection, recognition and classification of any category weren't possible just few years ago.
Or rather we had accuracy well below 50%.

While today the best deep learning object classifier today can achieve over 90% accuracy on any category.
 
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@Bladerskb - It's cute that you got so worked up you started by insulting me and then moved on to a full dissertation on the history of machine learning - all to try to prove me wrong about a claim I never made. I agree with you, mcfly. Learn to read, or at least not to make assumptions.

"given that Tesla vision started from zero six months ago and is close to achieving parity with a system that used neural nets Mobileye refined over many years. "

That was the statement you made.
And I debunked it with historical and scientific facts.
You can't say it took mobileye ten years and only took me 6 months.
That's about as illogical it gets. I'm sorry that facts and history are insults to you.

But like i said, you weren't the first to make that ludicrous statement and i have held my peace so far. But my urge to respond has been building up for awhile.

So it is your contention that because Tesla wasn't able to reach parity and or exceed Mobileye's decade+ of R&D in a matter of months, that this somehow made mobileye worth 15B? If anything Tesla coming close at all to parity with mobileye's system in the span of a few months probably freaked mobileye out and made them go looking for a deep pocketed bag holder to buy them out before Tesla system becomes clearly better than mobileye with less than a year of development vs mobileye 15+ years to reach mediocre TACC in production vehicles.

Because it took mobileye over a decade to bring a mediocre TACC system to market and within a year Tesla had the best implementation of mobileye hardware on the market. If you think about it people on here are complaining that Tesla hasn't yet surpassed 15+ years of mobileye R&D in a matter of months with AP2. If Tesla's own system reaches parity within a month or two from here, that is freaking super impressive, relatively speaking, but people will just whine that Elon was a few months behind his optimistic estimate. Putting aside Elon estimates, what Tesla actually accomplishes in given timeframes relative to competition is almost always incredibly impressive. Even things like the model X, if you ignore Elon optimitic estimates, the time-frame to bringing together a new ambitious 'from the ground up' high tech electric SUV in 4 years (including delays and slow ramp) is pretty impressive and well ahead of the industry standard.
 
Dude, back from the ledge. I said I AGREE with you. Obviously it is the history of research and progress prior to Tesla that has made this rapid progress possible. "Extraordinary" = "startling/awe-inspiring/amazing" in everyday use IE its connotation not its denotation. Your point/essay is banal and anyone here who has done a smidgeon of reading about neural nets, machine learning and recent advances in hardware making end to end learning possible -agrees with you. Your point is SO obvious I didn't think it needs explaining. But thanks, I guess, for clarifying.
 
Dude, back from the ledge. I said I AGREE with you. Obviously it is the history of research and progress prior to Tesla that has made this rapid progress possible. "Extraordinary" = "startling/awe-inspiring/amazing" in everyday use IE its connotation not its denotation. Your point/essay is banal and anyone here who has done a smidgeon of reading about neural nets, machine learning and recent advances in hardware making end to end learning possible -agrees with you. Your point is SO obvious I didn't think it needs explaining. But thanks, I guess, for clarifying.

I'm glad that we do have common ground. But I'm sure you know that not every one shares the same definition of Extraordinary or "super impressive" as @Turing puts it. I can show you a dozen others like @Turing that say Tesla started from scratch and surpassed decades of Mobileye in a blink of an eye.

brj0Olh.png


but i disgress...
 
I'm glad that we do have common ground. But I'm sure you know that not every one shares the same definition of Extraordinary or "super impressive" as @Turing puts it. I can show you a dozen others like @Turing that say Tesla started from scratch and surpassed decades of Mobileye in a blink of an eye.

brj0Olh.png


but i disgress...

I assumed that when people say Tesla started from scratch (I've said that myself) they understand and mean that Tesla started with a "blank canvas" neural net running what amounts to a custom cluster of GPU's provided by NVIDIA - rather than starting with neural net already trained by a team of at Mobileye to recognize the paths, objects etc. I also assumed most folks here understand Nvidia is pushing end to end learning, largely or completely lacking human annotated images for training - 180 degrees opposite what Mobileye did (at least up to eyeq3). So in that sense Tesla did start "from scratch" using hardware sourced from Nvidia. But nobody claims Tesla invented these theories - the theories date back many decades and hardware is just now catching up.
 
I'm just going to put this right here for all the people who thought I was way off with my original post a few years ago. Right now it aligns with Elon's latest thinking.

Yes, you have the right to say "I told you so" to me, among others. I believed the FSD video and Elon. Foolish me.

Do you believe the new time line of 2 - 3 years? Now I'm sceptical of that and I also wonder if it will require hardware that will be on cars coming out just prior to that time, and not the current hardware in use?
 
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Yes, you have the right to say "I told you so" to me, among others. I believed the FSD video and Elon. Foolish me.

Do you believe the new time line of 2 - 3 years? Now I'm sceptical of that and I also wonder if it will require hardware that will be on cars coming out just prior to that time, and not the current hardware in use?

I still think 3 years is on the optimistic side, but more within the realm of reason.

Don’t get me wrong, I still think Tesla moves crazy fast and will lead for autonomy in production cars, but I think he got a bit too optimistic on this one.

I do think some neat semi-level 3 stuff will come over the next year though.
 
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Whuuut?! Leon told me he considered autonomous driving “pretty much a solved problem” Q1 2016. I know he is intimately involved in the effort, stopping by often with an extra large coffee cup in hand.

Tesla will have “FSD” when they buy it from a capable supplier. Not a day sooner.
 
Just think of all that fleet learning data they must have by now! 100,000 AP2.x cars x 8 cameras of video feed + radar data. And that’s not even counting all the info about what’s 20cm away from the numerous ultrasonic sensors. I mean, where do they even put it all!


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