-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Why are people sweating the details?
- Thread starter chuckd
- Start date
When you buy a 100k car, a $2000 option seems like an insignificant difference. That's why all car manufacturers have these options. In relation to the total, these options appear small. The very same person goes grocery shopping and buys the $3 milk instead of the $4 milk. We tend to think it percentages rather than absolute numbers. We think that one milk is 25% more expensive. Or that tooth brush is $1 more than the other and pick the cheap one. And when we buy a car we have no problem spending $8000 or more on extras. It makes no sense from an economical point of view. And some people are smart enough to see it that way and don't buy a $2500 set of wheels or $2500 for slightly better music sound. Because just leaving out these two options is a family vacation right there.
Another explanation is that people see higher or lower value in some options. I think a spoiler is a total waste of money, it has zero value to me. Same as 21 inch wheels. They cost more, and decrease range and increase danger of a flat. Power lift gate: heck yes. I open the back several times every day, it's a major convenience to have it. Dual charger: total waste, CHAdeMo adapter: yes very useful. Everyone has different needs and thus values options differently.
Another explanation is that people see higher or lower value in some options. I think a spoiler is a total waste of money, it has zero value to me. Same as 21 inch wheels. They cost more, and decrease range and increase danger of a flat. Power lift gate: heck yes. I open the back several times every day, it's a major convenience to have it. Dual charger: total waste, CHAdeMo adapter: yes very useful. Everyone has different needs and thus values options differently.
Ive definitely not always been in the position to be able to afford a Tesla, or any other car for that matter. However, when I was in that situation, a Tesla would have not been an option. Please tell me you don't advise people living month-to-month that a Tesla is a reasonable purchase! This is not the demographic for the model S.
I probably approached the S from a different angle. As recently as January, I would never have considered the model S. My theory was 'it's electric, it probably sucks'. Then I saw the Insane videos, and figured I at least should give it a shot and test drive one. My eyes were opened, and I realized that this was the first car in a long time that was quite different and interesting. I ordered immediately when I got back from the test drive. I bought purely for the extraordinary qualities of the car and nothing else.
deonb
Active Member
Why not? What specifically makes a month-to-month living person unworthy of a Tesla?
I know quite a few month-to-month people who earn > $300k per year. A Tesla is a tiny part of their expenses. Yes, some people chose to live like Warren Buffet, but others will proportionally buy higher end lodging, higher end vehicles, spend more on medical, spend more on schooling, travel more, spend more on retirement etc. It may not be for you, but why judge? It works for them.
I also know of at least one person one here with a 250 mile daily commute. So should he be forced to buy a Prius for $300 per month and spend another $600 on gas? Or would it not just make more sense to spend $838 per month on a Model S instead, regardless of income?
Heck, if you live in Norway with $9.26/gallon gas prices, and your commute is 150 miles per day, the Tesla becomes cheaper to own than a Vespa. Nope. That's still not worthy for you, right?
I would recommend that you stop judging other people's buying decisions...
The process is the same to me. I've never owned a car anywhere near as expensive as a Model S. I have a 2013 85kWh model with some options but not the most costly ones (no pano roof or air suspension).
For most people it is not as simple as starting out with the most expensive Model S version and then simply adding on any option that they desire. But they are powerfully attracted to the idea of a long range EV with truly revolutionary features, so they stretch to acquire to.
You appear to live in financial world that only a small percentage of people inhabit. I suggest you recalibrate your perspective...
Drucifer
Active Member
Some interesting points. While being no "1%er", I still do pretty well and yet consider myself to be living essentially "month-to-month". Why? Well, after I pay health insurance and tax withholdings, then I put around $1800 into my 401k, pay an additional $1500 principal on my house on top of the mortgage and escrow, pay an additional $500 a month principal on a rental property I have a mortgage on, save for my child's college education, fund some after-tax investments etc., the money is pretty well gone.
If I lose my job, am I screwed? - No, I could probably live for years without working at this point.
Will I have more discretionary income in retirement than I have today? - Yes, I will be debt free, have social security with luck, have substantial IRA and 401k investments and continue to own paid off rental property and debt free businesses.
That still doesn't make a new, loaded Model S a slam dunk. I won't compromise any of my financial plans to accomplish getting the car. If I didn't care about savings and debt, I could have a dozen of them, but having a dozen Teslas and living in a cardboard box doesn't constitute a plan in my book.
If I lose my job, am I screwed? - No, I could probably live for years without working at this point.
Will I have more discretionary income in retirement than I have today? - Yes, I will be debt free, have social security with luck, have substantial IRA and 401k investments and continue to own paid off rental property and debt free businesses.
That still doesn't make a new, loaded Model S a slam dunk. I won't compromise any of my financial plans to accomplish getting the car. If I didn't care about savings and debt, I could have a dozen of them, but having a dozen Teslas and living in a cardboard box doesn't constitute a plan in my book.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
If a person or clan owns a bunch of Teslas, they likely won't ever have to live in a cardboard box.
Remember that Supercharging is "free for life" on all new Model S. A tribe of Jawas or Tusken Raiders could easily use the Superchargers to power their Teslas, and run computers and other equipment off of the Model S battery. With energy comes the ability to do useful work, whether it is programming software or repairing machines and robots.
Nomadic people living in Teslas also have the ability to move for free to warmer climates during the winter. I predict this is going to be a huge unintended consequence of the Supercharger network and a major headache for both Tesla and the public around 2030.
thecloud
As rhythm raced inside, the ship came alive
A description of how you are able to put thousands away every month into savings and investments, and could live for years without working, is not the definition of "month-to-month" living that I suspect most people would have in mind.
I'm one of those owners who isn't a "car person" and would never have considered spending anywhere close to 100K on any ICE vehicle. However, as others have said, the Model S is a different sort of purchase. It's more a high-tech rocket sled than a car. It eliminates the need to ever buy gas again. It's more fun to drive. Its software keeps improving. The supercharger network enables long trips for free (well, for a one-time upfront charge), and the 30 minute rest stop makes the overall trip more relaxing. It's an investment in the future, in many different ways. We're fortunate to be able to afford to drive it now, and our combined investment will hopefully enable Tesla to deliver the 3 and more models to come, pushing the technology forward for everyone.
I did look too far ahead in one respect: if I had to do it over, I wouldn't have gotten the dual chargers. At the time, I thought I was somehow future-proofing my purchase since they would cost more to install later on, but the value proposition wasn't a good one: they're useless without the ability to pull 80 amps, which would require a full electrical panel upgrade and rewiring my house. Since I don't drive beyond the range of my battery in a single day (unless it involves stopping at a supercharger), I found that overnight charging at under 40 amps is more than adequate for me.
Ok this is pretty OT, but I really don't see how that could happen. You think people would convert their Model S into a mobile office and leech off Superchargers? Energy prices are not that high to make that a good alternative. Installing Solar panels and a grid storage system (soon to come from Tesla) will be a much better way to avoid energy cost.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
I guess the larger point, more OT, is that people sometimes place inordinate weight on the low cost stuff, whether it's an option that is 2% of the purchase price or something important but "free" like Supercharging.
It's irrational perhaps, but customers are fickle and no one should be surprised that some will penny pinch. After all, many people accumulated wealth by not spending more than necessary.
Where free or very low cost stuff is available, people will rush to get their share or more. Free pizza and donuts will cause a stampede at many corporate offices even though these foods are generally (1) cheap and (2) very unhealthy. Also a % of people just want to roam around and be free. Today some people do this with sailboats. Why not a Model S or X?
Given that particular long commute scenario, I agree that the base model 70D with no options at all makes sense. And where did we get this 'worthiness' concept? I honestly wish everybody could have a Tesla, just not at the risk of not feeding the family!
The sad part is your friend can save money with the Tesla, but perhaps can't qualify for the loan/lease, where he could easily qualify for a Prius that in the long run is more expensive. I'm not saying your friend can or can't qualify, I have no idea about that. Just replace 'your friend' with 'anybody in that particular long commute situation'.
Edit: To be honest, though, your friend can't touch the entry model 70D for $838 per month, since he's driving 66,000 miles per year. He doesn't qualify for a lease, period. Assuming a 5 year note with no interest at all, he's paying at least $1250 a month. It's easy to get a low cost ICE car that gets at least 30mpg highway, and he'd realistically pay less than $450 a month for gas (assuming $2.50 a gallon, it's about $2.05 where I live right now). That's at least $300 a month cheaper with an ICE car, assuming he always charges at Superchargers and never pays for electricity at all.
I have no idea what they pay for electricity in Norway, so I can't compare that.
Last edited:
msteinbeck
Member
I would never ever consider a car of $60k or more, let alone the $100k I just spent on my Model S. Like you said, there is just something about the company. I'm use to my Dodge Neon and Hyundai Elantra price point cars but there is something about Tesla. I love their vision and their car and for that is why I dropped the money on a car I would never think I could afford or need. Now mind you I make good money but have never thought I would need a car at this price point. I have never once thought of purchasing a BMW, Audi, or Mercedes. If Tesla wasn't around I would just drive my 2013 Hyundai Elantra into the ground for the next 15 years and be perfectly happy. But the few test drives I've taken have sold me and now here I am checking MyTesla everyday hoping my delivery day will move up and checking TMC to pass the time.
Is it Early June yet!?
A thought that is missing from this thread is the point that some options are packages of items, some of which have value to the customer and some of which don't. I don't appreciate paying for something I don't want, even if it is $100 and more so at $1000+, even though I can afford it. (The auto industry has done a poor job of training me to accept a lot of questionable options because I rarely buy new cars, buy minimal options, avoid packages, and previously have never bought a premium ICE.)
In the Tesla menu, the biggest offenders have been the former tech package and the current premium package because they bundle things that are apples and oranges.
When I ordered 2 months ago the Tech package included the Nav and Autopilot convenience features that I wanted and several I didn't want: the fog lights (never lived where these were useful) and power lift gate (big enough to manage the manual, not going to open it dozens of times a day). Cornering lights sound potentially useful but not sure of the value. Fast forward to the current options and I'd be much happier. The stuff I didn't want moved to the premium package, which I never wanted, and the split of the Nav / Autopilot functions between standard and optional makes technical sense. However, many people want (and smaller people need) the power lift gate but don't want all the other premium stuff. Logic of combining premium interior with power lift gate, fog lights, and cornering lights escapes me.
I understand manufacturers need to bundle options to keep the manufacturing decision points within reason. In theory the manufacturer should pick combinations that people would typically order together and maybe there was some focus group that mostly wanted fog lights and premium interior. The resulting logic usually escapes me, but I am a technical guy, not a marketing guy.
FWIW, I did not change my order even though I like the logic of the new options better. Between price increases and change fees it would not save much money, and the power lift gate, cornering lights, and maybe even fog lights, are real capabilities that do have some potential value, and most important, I didn't want to delay my order. :smile:
In the Tesla menu, the biggest offenders have been the former tech package and the current premium package because they bundle things that are apples and oranges.
When I ordered 2 months ago the Tech package included the Nav and Autopilot convenience features that I wanted and several I didn't want: the fog lights (never lived where these were useful) and power lift gate (big enough to manage the manual, not going to open it dozens of times a day). Cornering lights sound potentially useful but not sure of the value. Fast forward to the current options and I'd be much happier. The stuff I didn't want moved to the premium package, which I never wanted, and the split of the Nav / Autopilot functions between standard and optional makes technical sense. However, many people want (and smaller people need) the power lift gate but don't want all the other premium stuff. Logic of combining premium interior with power lift gate, fog lights, and cornering lights escapes me.
I understand manufacturers need to bundle options to keep the manufacturing decision points within reason. In theory the manufacturer should pick combinations that people would typically order together and maybe there was some focus group that mostly wanted fog lights and premium interior. The resulting logic usually escapes me, but I am a technical guy, not a marketing guy.
FWIW, I did not change my order even though I like the logic of the new options better. Between price increases and change fees it would not save much money, and the power lift gate, cornering lights, and maybe even fog lights, are real capabilities that do have some potential value, and most important, I didn't want to delay my order. :smile:
Drucifer
Active Member
Maybe, but every month I have to work, every month income comes in and every month that money is allocated to debt reduction, savings, taxes and expenses, leaving little for discretionary spending at the end. I suppose the way I view it, that's "month-to-month". That would not be "hand-to-mouth" where you need every bit of income at all times to survive and are just a few paychecks from being homeless or hungry.
- - - Updated - - -
I stand corrected. Owning a dozen Teslas and living at a supercharger location converting individual Models S into sleeping quarters, living space, food preparation space and outhouse doesn't constitute a plan in my book. You know, actually it does constitute a plan....an odd plan, but nevertheless A PLAN of some sort.
For me TexasEV hits the nail on the head. I suspect my buying style is as far from Chuck's as anyone. :biggrin:
I was never a "car guy". Even as a teenager I was indifferent to cars. (In my generation this was a serious aberration, now not so much.) I purchased my Model S at age 65 and during my entire life I had never purchased a "luxury" car, or spent more than around $18,000. However, I have always been an early adopter and I have always wanted a practical EV. When it first came out I initially put down a deposit on a Chevy Volt, and would have gone through with the deal if my local franchised dealership hadn't acted like a typical franchised dealership and pulled a sleazy move. While surfing the Internet for news on the Volt I ran across a web page listing all the upcoming EVs, including the Model S. Wow! My world changed radically!!
Starting back in 2011 here's my purchase decision process:
1. $50,000 for a car...well, it’s only more than three times expensive than anything I've ever purchased in my entire life. What the heck let's check it out.
2. I think since I only drive about 30 miles per day I should be able to get by with a 40 kWh battery.
3. I start on the forums and someone from my town with the handle DavidM suggests that it might not be a good idea to go with such a small battery without a charging infrastructure in place.
4. Okay, makes sense $60,000 for a car with a bigger battery.
5. Someone from my town whose name begins with "Nigel" arranges for the Model S prototype to be displayed at the Sarasota Yacht Club where he was a director. (Nigel owns a yacht.)
6. Needless to say my wife and I don't own a yacht, but we go to the Yacht club for the first time.
7. Tesla cheats, they have a prototype with custom paint job with 12 coats of Signature Red paint.
8. My wife and I turn the corner; we see the car sitting on the beautiful teak floor with the fancy paint job. My wife exclaims "OH MY GOD!!".
9. I instantly hand $5,000 to the Tesla kid with the iPad. I'm now a reservation holder!
10. A month goes by and I get an email from Tesla. How would I like to fly from Sarasota to Fremont, California for a test RIDE?
11. I don't even like California, but I ask my wife "How would you like to fly to California for a test RIDE? She answers "What are you nuts, fly to California for a 3 minute test RIDE?" Thinking fast I say, "Well I thought we could make it a romantic getaway in WINE COUNTRY." She says "Well why didn't you tell me in the first place, I'll book everything including the trip on the NAPA VALLEY WINE TRAIN."
12. We visit the Fremont factory. The white floors are so clean it looks like you could eat off of them. The factory is decorated to the nines. My wife loves the decorating! I love the multiple free bars serving drinks and finger food against the backdrop of the California Mountains. (Did I tell you we don't have mountains in Sarasota?) We get our test RIDE. It's fantastic, but it doesn't even last 2 minutes. But, Tesla had set the hook a lot deeper. What the heck we might as well get a bigger battery. Okay $70,000 for the car.
13. Now my wife and I start having the first beginning symptoms of a disease that was going to haunt our lives from then on…Teslaitis.
14. I decide to start a car club! The Florida Tesla Motors Club. (Later renamed to Florida Tesla Enthusiasts because Tesla and TMC thought the name was too close to theirs.) Our club grows quickly…Soon we have over 60 families. There are just a couple of problems. Its being run by a non-car guy and nobody has cars (except some really rich guy whose name begins with Nigel who happens to have a beautiful Roadster.)
15. Time marches on, Tesla sells out its Signature Model S. My Tesla madness had grown greatly by this time and I said “Screw it I NEED to get to the front of the line; I need to get on the Signature waiting list.”
16. I’m at a friend’s and club member’s party. Unlike me he’s rich like Nigel. He has a Roadster too and an early reservation on a Model S. He’s a very exacting person. He needs to get a test DRIVE before committing to a Model S and nothing was yet announced regarding test DRIVES. After a number of drinks he and I and our wives decide that we are all going to fly down to Fremont and crash the Founder Series bash. By the time we sober up we already have airline tickets and hotel room reservations. As fate would have it before we fly out to California Tesla announces the first GET AMPED test drive event.
17. The four of us are in our hotel room in Fremont. My cell phone rings. It’s Douglas from Tesla. He asks “How would you like to own a Signature Model S?” I say, “Are you kidding, why do you think I’ve been carrying this check for $35,000 around with me.”
18. The next day we’re at the first GET AMPED event. George Blankenship is telling us to "floor it"!! I hand my $35,000 to a kid in sales. I’m now a reservation holder for a Signature Model S! It of course comes with every option standard except the Panoramic Roof and the Rear Facing Kiddie Seats. What the heck I decide to economize and get just the pano roof, but not the Kiddie Seats…I don’t have kids and my grandson is 30. The price of the car with sales tax $116,000.
There you have it. My decision process. :redface: I swear everything I have stated is the absolute truth.
19. Oh so, Tesla comes out with the D series...I turn to my wife and say "Gee Dear, how about an upgrade to the D?" She says, "Do you know what the "D" stands for?" I say "No what Dear?" She says, "DIVORCE!!"
By the way, our Tesla club is now closing in on 400 families.
Larry
Last edited:
Gee Chuck,
You are the last person I thought would suggest that we have similar buying styles. :redface:
Larry
Krugerrand
Meow
For what it's worth, I understood your thought process, didn't think it was snobbish, didn't think you were trying to be. As others have mentioned, the Model S is a particularly unique, expensive vehicle attracting many not normally in the market for that kind of a price tag, and even attracting non-car people. It's an extraordinary phenomenon!
Similar threads
