Why are TACC, AP (and ?FSD) so bad?

[COS Blue]

If you are referring to the recent 4 AM crash into the firetruck, I haven't seen any reporting that ADAS functions were in use leading up to the impact.

There are numerous reports of Teslas on Autopilot crashing into emergency vehicles. Thus my conclusion that the code is buggy.

Tesla cars involved in 16 crashes with emergency vehicles, regulators say

Federal safety watchdog is investigating the electric car maker's self-driving system after a string of accidents.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Dewg]

Your original statement was that the car(s) did not intentionally hit the emergency vehicles, which of course is correct. My obvious conclusion is that the vehicles slammed into emergency vehicles because the code (FSD and/or Autopilot) was buggy. And I contend it is grossly incompetent to write and release "full self driving" code that will slam into an emergency vehicle at full speed.

You can say the driver was at fault, and I don't disagree. But that doesn't change the fact that the code was grossly incapable of performing "full self driving".

Ah, I get where you're coming from now. You're in the L4/L5 group, and not the L2 group. You're in the group that reads all the disclaimers, all the warnings, all the website ordering verbiage, all telling you the car is not autonomous and you must be in total control, and says "nope, Elon says it's full self-driving, so I'm going to treat as such", and then shocked when it "does the wrong thing at the wrong time".

May I offer you a hot beverage?

 

[COS Blue]

Ah, I get where you're coming from now. You're in the L4/L5 group, and not the L2 group. You're in the group that reads all the disclaimers, all the warnings, all the website ordering verbiage, all telling you the car is not autonomous and you must be in total control, and says "nope, Elon says it's full self-driving, so I'm going to treat as such", and then shocked when it "does the wrong thing at the wrong time".

May I offer you a hot beverage?

No, I'm the reality group. I'm in the group that sees all the disclaimers, etc., and I also see that it is called "Autopilot" and "Full Self Driving," and I also read the news and see that no less than 16 times Teslas have slammed into emergency vehicles while using Autopilot.

Tesla and its apologists shouldn't try to have it both ways. Is TACC designed to keep me from hitting stuff? If so, it should keep me from hitting stuff. If not, then it shouldn't jab my brakes when there's nothing there... again, and again, and again.

Would you say it is not a bug when Autopilot slams into a fire truck with its emergency lights on?

 

[Supcom]

There are numerous reports of Teslas on Autopilot crashing into emergency vehicles. Thus my conclusion that the code is buggy.

Tesla cars involved in 16 crashes with emergency vehicles, regulators say

Federal safety watchdog is investigating the electric car maker's self-driving system after a string of accidents.

www.cbsnews.com

A nine-month old article referencing crashes from five years ago? That's ancient history. Maybe you could find some confirmed reports of AP crashes into emergency vehicles from the modern era?

BTW, all code is buggy.

 

[KLam]

Something is not quite right here. Forward Collision Warning should have been activated and try to stop the car! Unless the driver disabled it. Anyway, how to recall a non functioning FCW. The same goes with FSDbeta especially its a L2 system where things could go wrong.

 

[zoomer0056]

the code is buggy

A general statement like that requires another general statement:

. . . and so is the driver

The truth is each accident is different. General statements like these are just hot air (mine included) with no specifics. It also falls into the sensationalistic click bait that the media is known for.

 

[Dewg]

No, I'm the reality group. I'm in the group that sees all the disclaimers, etc., and I also see that it is called "Autopilot" and "Full Self Driving," and I also read the news and see that no less than 16 times Teslas have slammed into emergency vehicles while using Autopilot.

Tesla and its apologists shouldn't try to have it both ways. Is TACC designed to keep me from hitting stuff? If so, it should keep me from hitting stuff. If not, then it shouldn't jab my brakes when there's nothing there... again, and again, and again.

Would you say it is not a bug when Autopilot slams into a fire truck with its emergency lights on?

Good to hear that you read the news and the disclaimers. That would tell me that you will likely never be in this situation yourself - you would see the emergency vehicles, recall the disclaimers, recall the new articles, and you would initiate a lane change or disengage the system to avoid the accident. As you said - you live in reality. You would use the system exactly how it is supposed to be used, as a driver assistance system.

Of course the system isn't designed to slam into vehicles. If it was, then AP/NoA/FSD would be hitting cars constantly. There's millions of Teslas on the road, and they aren't all slamming into cars on a daily basis. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - Telsas will cause accidents. Teslas will kill people. The goal is that they do it less than humans, saving lives.

 

[PVia]

Something is not quite right here. Forward Collision Warning should have been activated and try to stop the car! Unless the driver disabled it. Anyway, how to recall a non functioning FCW. The same goes with FSDbeta especially its a L2 system where things could go wrong.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but FCW is a warning only with red flashing and audio beeping.
It doesn't apply braking...emergency braking does that but only at the last second to minimize impact.
I've had the FCW warning several times when the car sees that no braking has been applied (regen or otherwise) and you are approaching a vehicle from behind.

Remember though, that AutoPilot/FSDb does not suspend the laws of physics.

 

[Supcom]

Something is not quite right here. Forward Collision Warning should have been activated and try to stop the car! Unless the driver disabled it. Anyway, how to recall a non functioning FCW. The same goes with FSDbeta especially its a L2 system where things could go wrong.

You are referring to AEB. It's possible that it did activate. We do not yet know how fast the car was travelling. A Model S can go awfully fast at 4AM. Much faster than any AEB system could help.

 

[Dewg]

Something is not quite right here. Forward Collision Warning should have been activated and try to stop the car! Unless the driver disabled it. Anyway, how to recall a non functioning FCW. The same goes with FSDbeta especially its a L2 system where things could go wrong.

And FCW likely did. We don't have ANY details of this crash yet. AEB doesn't work if the accelerator pedal is engaged - was the guy's foot on the accelerator? FCW is just that - a warning. After the warning, AEB attempts to kick off and slow the car down, as long as the driver has released the accelerator and hit the brakes, and helps mitigate the crash.

And you pointed out that the driver could have disabled AEB. How many times have we seen articles about "run-away" cars where it turns out the driver accidentally slammed on the accelerator instead of the brake? Or an after-market weather mat got caught on the pedals.

We see all the articles about the bad things that Tesla cars do - and how often do we see the same sensational headlines when it turns out Tesla wasn't at fault after NHTSA finishes their investigation (which admittedly takes them FOREVER to finish)? Those articles are buried, quietly, because no one cares about them.

 

[enemji]

So it's a game of whack-a-mole with regulators? "Let's have our ADAS features break the law and see if NHTSA notices." What is this, a Folgers commercial?

It is better to ask for forgiveness than to get the permission.

 

[COS Blue]

A nine-month old article referencing crashes from five years ago? That's ancient history. Maybe you could find some confirmed reports of AP crashes into emergency vehicles from the modern era?

The NHTSA investigation includes crashes from 2018-2021. The investigation itself was opened in 2021. I guess 3.5 years of having this problem is ok, as long as they fixed it after that. And of course we have no reason at all to suspect that the recent accident involved AP. I'm sure it's fine.

Incident List

• 07/10/2021 San Diego CA
• 05/19/2021 Miami FL
• 03/17/2021 Lansing MI
• 02/27/2021 Montgomery County TX
• 08/26/2020 Charlotte NC
• 07/30/2020 Cochise County AZ
• 01/22/2020 West Bridgewater MA
• 12/29/2019 Cloverdale IN
• 12/10/2019 Norwalk CT
• 05/29/2018 Laguna Beach CA
• 01/22/2018 Culver City CA

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2021/INOA-PE21020-1893.PDF

 

[enemji]

You are referring to AEB. It's possible that it did activate. We do not yet know how fast the car was travelling. A Model S can go awfully fast at 4AM. Much faster than any AEB system could help.

How is AEB ever at fault? If it crashes, it can be looked into and made better, but to assign fault to the AEB is absolutely privilegedly (sic) stupid.

"The accident is NOT my fault" is all I hear. Now let me find somebody or someone to blame for it. It sure ain't going to be me.

 

[COS Blue]

You would use the system exactly how it is supposed to be used, as a driver assistance system.

Indeed. I'm smart enough not to trust the system. Sadly not everyone is. Can't think of why they would get the idea that Autopilot won't automatically pilot the car, or that Full Self Driving won't fully self drive.

Something to keep in mind when holding AP/FSD blameless because "it was used wrong":

Investigators also wrote that a driver's use or misuse of the driver monitoring system "or operation of a vehicle in an unintended manner does not necessarily preclude a system defect."

(quote is from the article I referenced in a previous post)

 

[Daniel in SD]

AEB doesn't work if the accelerator pedal is engaged

Of course it does, that’s the whole point.
You can override it if you press the accelerator pedal hard after it engages though.

Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla

Learn about Collision Avoidance Assist and its specifications.

www.tesla.com

 

[Dewg]

Indeed. I'm smart enough not to trust the system. Sadly not everyone is. Can't think of why they would get the idea that Autopilot won't automatically pilot the car, or that Full Self Driving won't fully self drive.

Something to keep in mind when holding AP/FSD blameless because "it was used wrong":

(quote is from the article I referenced in a previous post)

California forced them to change the name as of this year, so I'm guessing that problem will go away any day now.

I'm not holding AP blameless. On the contrary, I said it can and will cause accidents.

 

[enemji]

California forced them to change the name as of this year, so I'm guessing that problem will go away any day now.

I'm not holding AP blameless. On the contrary, I said it can and will cause accidents.

Let me guess the new names:

NAP
NFSD

Did I get them right?

 

[Supcom]

How is AEB ever at fault? If it crashes, it can be looked into and made better, but to assign fault to the AEB is absolutely privilegedly (sic) stupid.

"The accident is NOT my fault" is all I hear. Now let me find somebody or someone to blame for it. It sure ain't going to be me.

I never said that AEB was culpable. I said that it couldn't save you if you drive too fast.

 

[enemji]

I never said that AEB was culpable. I said that it couldn't save you if you drive too fast.

oops.... I was using the "you" as a generic placeholder, not you in particular. In fact I was agreeing with you and made that post as a continuation of your position.

 

[derotam]

Of course it does, that’s the whole point.
You can override it if you press the accelerator pedal hard after it engages though.

Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla

Learn about Collision Avoidance Assist and its specifications.

www.tesla.com

I will confirm that AEB will continue to be activated unless you REALLY commit to that accelerator pedal. Lets just say I tried to deactivate AEB by pressing on the pedal but in the situation I was in I was not about to fully press down on the accelerator.