Why are TACC, AP (and ?FSD) so bad?

[enemji]

I will confirm that AEB will continue to be activated unless you REALLY commit to that accelerator pedal. Lets just say I tried to deactivate AEB by pressing on the pedal but in the situation I was in I was not about to fully press down on the accelerator.

I guess It really wants to make sure you want to hurt the other object, even it it comes at an expense to your health and wealth.

 

[2101Guy]

If you are referring to the recent 4 AM crash into the firetruck, I haven't seen any reporting that ADAS functions were in use leading up to the impact.

I think he was referring to one of the other 15 or so crashes(no fault of yours...it can be hard to keep up)

 

[Dewg]

I think he was referring to one of the other 15 or so crashes(no fault of yours...it can be hard to keep up)

This got me thinking about software updates. Let's say Tesla enhances the system with a whole new neural net that's just for interacting with emergency vehicles, reducing the odds of a crash with an emergency vehicle by a large percentage. How does Tesla get that software on every car out there?

We know there are people who will never update their software because they don't want to lose radar. We know there are people out there who don't update their software because they just can't be bothered (I've got several coworkers who are still running factory firmware, and one who's car downloaded an update but he's never installed it - just keeps touching "cancel" every time he gets in the car).

Does Tesla force the update to everyone over cellular, and force the install on their cars (perhaps choosing a time at 2 or 3AM when it's less likely people would need their cars)? Does that update also include the radar removal which was released months ago? Does it include the UI changes?

I personally think everyone should be updating their cars regularly, but I can see why some would want to avoid those updates. If those people crash into an emergency vehicle, is it still Tesla's fault, or the driver's fault for not applying an update that could have mitigated the accident?

 

[Supcom]

This got me thinking about software updates. Let's say Tesla enhances the system with a whole new neural net that's just for interacting with emergency vehicles, reducing the odds of a crash with an emergency vehicle by a large percentage. How does Tesla get that software on every car out there?

We know there are people who will never update their software because they don't want to lose radar. We know there are people out there who don't update their software because they just can't be bothered (I've got several coworkers who are still running factory firmware, and one who's car downloaded an update but he's never installed it - just keeps touching "cancel" every time he gets in the car).

Does Tesla force the update to everyone over cellular, and force the install on their cars (perhaps choosing a time at 2 or 3AM when it's less likely people would need their cars)? Does that update also include the radar removal which was released months ago? Does it include the UI changes?

I personally think everyone should be updating their cars regularly, but I can see why some would want to avoid those updates. If those people crash into an emergency vehicle, is it still Tesla's fault, or the driver's fault for not applying an update that could have mitigated the accident?

Forcing an installation is risky because Tesla has no way of knowing when you might need to use the car. Unless certain updates could be installed non-intrusively, I don't see it likely for them to force an installation on the car. If they were going to do so, I would think that they would provide notice well in advance to first give the customer opportunity to install at a convenient time.

Perhaps, at some point, auto insurers will require policyholders to install any safety related software upgrades as a condition of coverage.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

Does Tesla force the update to everyone over cellular, and force the install on their cars (perhaps choosing a time at 2 or 3AM when it's less likely people would need their cars)? Does that update also include the radar removal which was released months ago? Does it include the UI changes?

1. Yes. It has happened to us 2x. We don't have wifi at our parking spot (underground garage 20+ floors away from our wifi) and so we do updates by driving to the service centre and parking out back, hopping on their wifi and updating. But twice the update has been pushed and that has to be via mobile data.

2. God I hope not. We disabled ours by not paying attention to what we were losing by scouring forums before updating. We happened to be near the SC and had the time to update so we did. It was only later we learned what we had done to ourselves.

3. God I hope not. We haven't downloaded the Christmas one yet. I'm still suffering PSD after 2021's.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

...If they were going to do so, I would think that they would provide notice well in advance to first give the customer opportunity to install at a convenient time.

We never received notice. In the morning, we wake up and there's a notice from the app. If we haven't referred to our apps, there's also a notice on the screen when we get into the car.

 

[KLam]

I think Tesla is never at fault as there is no law which requires that cars don't crash into emergency vehicles.

 

[Supcom]

1. Yes. It has happened to us 2x. We don't have wifi at our parking spot (underground garage 20+ floors away from our wifi) and so we do updates by driving to the service centre and parking out back, hopping on their wifi and updating. But twice the update has been pushed and that has to be via mobile data.

Downloads happen automatically. Did Tesla force the actual installation, rendering your car unusable during the install process?

 

[COS Blue]

This got me thinking about software updates. Let's say Tesla enhances the system with a whole new neural net that's just for interacting with emergency vehicles, reducing the odds of a crash with an emergency vehicle by a large percentage. How does Tesla get that software on every car out there?

I think that's what recalls are for. Nobody can force you to take your car in (or push the update button) for a recall, but they officially notify you, and I believe you're not allowed to sell your car if there's an open recall against it [or at least a dealer is not allowed to]. So I think when a recall is issued, it becomes the owner's responsibility to deal with it.

But, this whole thing is part of why I've become disillusioned with the idea of continuous OTA updates. Some updates will be good, others will be bad. At some point I don't have a choice of whether to update, and then I get the good and the bad whether I want them or not. I imagine it could be done in a way that isn't annoying, but the way Tesla has done it has been quite annoying IMO.

 

[drtimhill]

Clearly the car has speed limit data from somewhere, but I don't think it actually applies the correct speed limit until it passes the GPS location of where its data has marked an actual physical sign. This is just a theory right now based on what I think I have seen in the past..I just haven't been able to get in the right scenario to show a good example of it.

Are we talking FSD beta here? FSDb does indeed visualize and act on speed limit changes, as has been shown time and again by various tests. It also uses map data, though there is some debate about how it handles disagreement between signage and map data. Several testers have placed "fake" speed limits signs and had the car read and react to them (in fact at one point the car came under scrutiny for accidentally responding to a speed limit sign that was part of a large roadside billboard advert).

 

[Dewg]

I think that's what recalls are for. Nobody can force you to take your car in (or push the update button) for a recall, but they officially notify you, and I believe you're not allowed to sell your car if there's an open recall against it [or at least a dealer is not allowed to]. So I think when a recall is issued, it becomes the owner's responsibility to deal with it.

But, this whole thing is part of why I've become disillusioned with the idea of continuous OTA updates. Some updates will be good, others will be bad. At some point I don't have a choice of whether to update, and then I get the good and the bad whether I want them or not. I imagine it could be done in a way that isn't annoying, but the way Tesla has done it has been quite annoying IMO.

I think the next thing we need to see from Tesla crash articles is what version of firmware the car was running. Imagine if this recent crash was found the guy was on firmware from 2021 or early 2022, and many changes and improvements have happened since then. The article doesn't say what year model it was - did it still have radar? Was it running a firmware that still had radar support? Definitely important to know.

 

[COS Blue]

Imagine if this recent crash was found the guy was on firmware from 2021 or early 2022, and many changes and improvements have happened since then.

But it shouldn't matter. I should not be forced to install non-safety-related updates (such as the one that took my seat heater controls, etc, off my bottom row, or the one that made it so that you can't listen to music without random gaps, or the one that disabled radar). If it is a safety-critical update, there should be a recall. Of course, in the Tesla world, to apply a safety-related update, I have to take all the other stuff too. Not a fan.

I mean I agree that it would be interesting to know, but I don't think it would be fair to blame the owner if they chose not to apply every update.

 

[enemji]

But it shouldn't matter. I should not be forced to install non-safety-related updates (such as the one that took my seat heater controls, etc, off my bottom row, or the one that made it so that you can't listen to music without random gaps, or the one that disabled radar). If it is a safety-critical update, there should be a recall. Of course, in the Tesla world, to apply a safety-related update, I have to take all the other stuff too. Not a fan.

I mean I agree that it would be interesting to know, but I don't think it would be fair to blame the owner if they chose not to apply every update.

A single stack of code is easier to maintain. Having all these kinds of options to keep few customers happy is what causes laggy software to be released.

Choices/Options are what causes bloat. Even in regular life.

 

[Dewg]

But it shouldn't matter. I should not be forced to install non-safety-related updates (such as the one that took my seat heater controls, etc, off my bottom row, or the one that made it so that you can't listen to music without random gaps, or the one that disabled radar). If it is a safety-critical update, there should be a recall. Of course, in the Tesla world, to apply a safety-related update, I have to take all the other stuff too. Not a fan.

I mean I agree that it would be interesting to know, but I don't think it would be fair to blame the owner if they chose not to apply every update.

I kinda see your point - but I don't think there is a solution that's not overly complicated for the end user. There just can't be a "pick and choose" form of updates. I want updates for the ADAS functions, but not UI updates. I want UI updates, but I don't want audio updates (like the recent Apple Music addition). I want ADAS updates and audio updates, but I don't want UI updates or climate control updates. It becomes too much of a nightmare trying to modularize the system and splitting updates.

 

[COS Blue]

A single stack of code is easier to maintain. Having all these kinds of options to keep few customers happy is what causes laggy software to be released.

I kinda see your point - but I don't think there is a solution that's not overly complicated for the end user. There just can't be a "pick and choose" form of updates.

I actually agree with both of you. TBH the problem would go away if they just wouldn't release stupid updates. Like taking my buttons off my bottom row, and disabling radar, and messing with my voice commands, and breaking my music player.

I realize it's subjective to say what's a stupid update and what isn't. I also realize that bugs happen. But in my opinion Tesla just isn't thoughtful and methodical enough with what they release. I don't want change for change's sake in my car, and I don't want stuff to get worse than it was before. Like, ever. So, just do that.

 

[PVia]

Indeed. I'm smart enough not to trust the system. Sadly not everyone is. Can't think of why they would get the idea that Autopilot won't automatically pilot the car, or that Full Self Driving won't fully self drive.

If they're not smart enough to read the manual or do a tiny bit of research or ask someone, they shouldn't be driving at all.
Does our whole world always have to be skewed to the lowest common denominator?

 

[enemji]

I actually agree with both of you. TBH the problem would go away if they just wouldn't release stupid updates. Like taking my buttons off my bottom row, and disabling radar, and messing with my voice commands, and breaking my music player.

I realize it's subjective to say what's a stupid update and what isn't. I also realize that bugs happen. But in my opinion Tesla just isn't thoughtful and methodical enough with what they release. I don't want change for change's sake in my car, and I don't want stuff to get worse than it was before. Like, ever. So, just do that.

In one of the updates, my heated seat icon disappeared from ONE of my TWO M3LR. That was funny AF. 2 updates later it was back.

 

[ewoodrick]

I think the next thing we need to see from Tesla crash articles is what version of firmware the car was running. Imagine if this recent crash was found the guy was on firmware from 2021 or early 2022, and many changes and improvements have happened since then. The article doesn't say what year model it was - did it still have radar? Was it running a firmware that still had radar support? Definitely important to know.

Version numbers don't increase the number of clicks or sell newspapers.

You don't hear about the 15,000+ other firetruck accidents, do you?

Nor the 38,000 people KILLED in auto accidents each year.
2+ million people injured in auto accidents.

 

[enemji]

Version numbers don't increase the number of clicks or sell newspapers.

You don't hear about the 15,000+ other firetruck accidents, do you?

Nor the 38,000 people KILLED in auto accidents each year.
2+ million people injured in auto accidents.

The horse carriage owners published similar reports about automobiles. Insecurity makes people do shtty things

 

[AndrewZ]

Version numbers don't increase the number of clicks or sell newspapers.

You don't hear about the 15,000+ other firetruck accidents, do you?

Nor the 38,000 people KILLED in auto accidents each year.
2+ million people injured in auto accidents.

Ok now what are the contributing factors in those accidents and how do we meaningfully reduce them without introducing new risks?

I'm looking at Canada's 2020 stats right now and it seems like putting in robust driver monitoring (to limit distraction) and speed governors would solve a lot of them. The driver wasn't even wearing a seatbelt in 33% of driver fatalities, why don't we make it so vehicles can't move unless a seatbelt is plugged in? Bam reduced fatalities.


Alarming stats without context are often used to justify things that don't really make a lot of sense after taking in the full picture. Level 4-5 autonomy far in excess of human safety would save a lot of lives, the question is what we do in the interim. And there's a lot we can do in the interim, the regulator's job is to work towards reducing these numbers without introducing new risks or effectively transferring accidents from one source to another. There are people who spend their entire educational and professional careers working on this stuff.