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Why are the Model S door panels so thick?

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I think you guys have been involved emotionally and financially for a long time, I am new to this and I see a big picture. Not so emotionally attach. Just rational, pragmatic.

What I see is a guy on a mission. He will succeed.

I think we're being realistic. Most of us believe in tesla -- very much so -- but there are some things that just "are" at this point, and it's doubtful positive thinking will change it. I accept it. I'll be happy to be wrong though.
 
At the Fremont event I sat in the rear and noticed when I exited the car my foot hit the rear door panel. I took a look at all the panels and noticed they all are 2-3 inches thicker than the door panels in the cars I drive. My takeaway from the event was the beta interior was not complete; I had hoped the extra thick door panels would slim down but that does not appear to be the case.

Here's photos of the Model S white beta and the prototype Model X front door panels. Clearly, Tesla can make a thinner door panel as evidenced by the Model X on display. Why is the Model S door panel so thick? It interferes with exiting and without storage pockets I don't see a need for them to be as thick as they are.

Yes, it probably seems like nit picking, is it to much to want something a bit more refined when the Model X looks like its there already?

Just for comparison, the doors of the current 7-series BMW. They don't really seem slim either:

doorpanel_comp.PNG
 

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Thanks for posting the comparison pictures. I agree, the series 7 BMW pictures you posted do show the door panel being thick as well. It does look like from the photos that the panel edges have been tapered in comparison to the Model S door panels. I think I need to see if I have the same egress problem with the BMW in the back seat and if I don't, I will have to see if it is because the BMW door opens wider, has a larger opening at the bottom or the panel tapering provides extra room. (maybe a combo of all 3)
 
The BMW picture brought something to my attention that I hadn't really noticed before. The Model S uses a "half door" (not sure what to call that), in that it doesn't have a full frame above the window. Most of the cars I've dealt with use full-framed doors. I suppose since the Model S door has one less seam up top (just the seam between window and body, and not window to frame, and frame to body as with a full-frame door), it could potentially be quieter. What do you think the pros and cons are between both door types?
 
That picture makes me think that the Model S door looks thicker because of the strong two-tone color contrast of the exterior and interior. Does anyone have a shot of the door of a silver/beige (or similar close colors) Model S?
 
The BMW picture brought something to my attention that I hadn't really noticed before. The Model S uses a "half door" (not sure what to call that), in that it doesn't have a full frame above the window. Most of the cars I've dealt with use full-framed doors. I suppose since the Model S door has one less seam up top (just the seam between window and body, and not window to frame, and frame to body as with a full-frame door), it could potentially be quieter. What do you think the pros and cons are between both door types?

The only time I've driven a car with frameless windows, it was more prone to air leaks due to unreliable sealing between the window and the roof. The window seemed to flex out of place when there was a pressure differential (gust of wind, passing truck), releasing pressure on the seal and causing leakage. Mind you that was some years ago.
 
The BMW picture brought something to my attention that I hadn't really noticed before. The Model S uses a "half door" (not sure what to call that), in that it doesn't have a full frame above the window. Most of the cars I've dealt with use full-framed doors. I suppose since the Model S door has one less seam up top (just the seam between window and body, and not window to frame, and frame to body as with a full-frame door), it could potentially be quieter. What do you think the pros and cons are between both door types?

The only time I've driven a car with frameless windows, it was more prone to air leaks due to unreliable sealing between the window and the roof. The window seemed to flex out of place when there was a pressure differential (gust of wind, passing truck), releasing pressure on the seal and causing leakage. Mind you that was some years ago.

This makes lots of sense. My mom's Volvo C70 had really thick door panels too and it was also a frameless window. There was a convertible option so these make sense. But I remember the doors being really wide.

Speaking of which are there other reasons to use a frameless window door vs a framed window door. Apart from the already mentioned convertible option. My Dodge Neon had frameless windows, and there was not a convertible option, and well at ~85 mph (~top speed) the windows would pull away from the seals and you would get a horrible vacuum sound. It was a nice distraction from the 'death shakes' the car gave off at that speed. If you were not ready for it you would think the car fell apart.

My dad's Subaru Outback also has frameless windows, with no convertible option.
My dad's Audi TT has frameless windows, but it is a convertible.

Yeah I had a Dodge Neon that would 'death rattle' at about 70-75mph, and the window seals (frameless windows) would break at about 80-85mph and if you were not ready for it you would think the car fell apart.

Granted my mom's C70 never had that problem, and my dads Subaru doesn't either. The TT is a soft top and every now and then it doesn't get a perfect airtight seal on the windows.

But I too want to ask what are the advantages to frameless windows, or rather framed windows? The only thing I can see is that frameless windows allow for convertible options.
 
The only time I've driven a car with frameless windows, it was more prone to air leaks due to unreliable sealing between the window and the roof. The window seemed to flex out of place when there was a pressure differential (gust of wind, passing truck), releasing pressure on the seal and causing leakage. Mind you that was some years ago.

The more I think about it, I really think Tesla will release a convertible Model S in the not-too-distant future. This paves the way for them to more easily do so without changing the body much. I feel like there was something else I noticed about the body that made me think this, as if they had planned it from the get go.
 
But I too want to ask what are the advantages to frameless windows, or rather framed windows? The only thing I can see is that frameless windows allow for convertible options.

Aesthetics. They do look a bit better. But now that I do some research, it looks like a lot of people complain about the seals going over time with frameless windows, and that the windows also begin to rattle. This has me a bit concerned if this is a good choice on the part of Tesla if there's going to be long term consequences. They are also more easily to break into.
 
The more I think about it, I really think Tesla will release a convertible Model S in the not-too-distant future. This paves the way for them to more easily do so without changing the body much. I feel like there was something else I noticed about the body that made me think this, as if they had planned it from the get go.

:redface: Silly me... I wasn't even thinking of the Roadster, which of course also has frameless windows. But it's a convertible. The other car I was thinking of was not.

You could be right about the convertible. Wasn't there originally a cabriolet listed as one of the four Model S platform versions?
 
Aesthetics. They do look a bit better. But now that I do some research, it looks like a lot of people complain about the seals going over time with frameless windows, and that the windows also begin to rattle. This has me a bit concerned if this is a good choice on the part of Tesla if there's going to be long term consequences. They are also more easily to break into.

I do know my dad's TT (frameless windows) has adjustment on how high his windows roll up, how far they are angled into the car. He has had them adjusted a few times, but in reality his top is messed up so he won't ever get it to work perfectly. They are water tight but not air tight. But that being said he doesn't ever drive the thing without the top down. His Subaru is only about 3 years old but those windows (also frameless) seal really well. My mom had a Volvo C70 (also frameless, non-convertible) for about 5 years that never had any window seal problems.

My Dodge Neon had those problems. And yeah it was a security problem as you could get you fingers on the top edge of the glass and pull down. The plastic gears in the hand crank window would slip on one another and well the window would drop. My current GTI (full framed windows) has door seal problems from the roof rack clips pinching the seals.

I am sure a properly built/installed/adjusted frameless window will seal just as well as a fully framed window.
 
I do know my dad's TT (frameless windows) has adjustment on how high his windows roll up, how far they are angled into the car. He has had them adjusted a few times, but in reality his top is messed up so he won't ever get it to work perfectly. They are water tight but not air tight.

It is somewhat of a curious choice by Tesla given that noise suppression is key with how quiet the car will otherwise be. I think I'll have to be prepared to adjust the windows every so often as the seal degrades over time.
 
The BMW picture brought something to my attention that I hadn't really noticed before. The Model S uses a "half door" (not sure what to call that), in that it doesn't have a full frame above the window. Most of the cars I've dealt with use full-framed doors. I suppose since the Model S door has one less seam up top (just the seam between window and body, and not window to frame, and frame to body as with a full-frame door), it could potentially be quieter. What do you think the pros and cons are between both door types?

Not a chance. One reason for that frame is that it limits vibration and leaks around the window. It is a stronger structure. Frameless windows are for style and to allow commonality with a convertible model. One would hope that the S is quiet enough that it doesn't matter.
 
The only time I've driven a car with frameless windows, it was more prone to air leaks due to unreliable sealing between the window and the roof. The window seemed to flex out of place when there was a pressure differential (gust of wind, passing truck), releasing pressure on the seal and causing leakage. Mind you that was some years ago.
My C6 Corvette had frameless windows but they moved UP into a channel in the roof when you closed the door. This prevents the windows from flexing out at high speeds (the neon death rattle described above). They sealed perfectly fine because the roof became the frame. When you pushed the button to open the door (it also had electronic door handles like Model S) it would lower the window a fraction so you could open the door. Model S does this too. My only problem w/ frameless windows is that people use the window to close the door resulting in fingerprints.
 
The BMW picture brought something to my attention that I hadn't really noticed before. The Model S uses a "half door" (not sure what to call that), in that it doesn't have a full frame above the window. Most of the cars I've dealt with use full-framed doors. I suppose since the Model S door has one less seam up top (just the seam between window and body, and not window to frame, and frame to body as with a full-frame door), it could potentially be quieter. What do you think the pros and cons are between both door types?

As you can see here, my door also has those windows, and I think soundproofing-wise there is not much difference to a non-coupé door.

330door.png


Perhaps these doors are even a bit louder, but at higher speeds tire noise tends to overpower other noise sources anyway.

As for sealing issues, my car is eight years old now but I have never had any problems with leaks or the like. Also up to now I have never had to "adjust" anything connected with the doors/windows. And I used to drive a lot on the Autobahn (highway) at high speeds (who doesn't in Germany? :) ), so there was a lot of stress on the windows. But they never rattled or let in any air or leaked. Perhaps it's because they too move up into a channel in the roof when you close the door, like on strider's Corvette.
 
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