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TSLA Pilot

Active Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,796
2,491
United States
Okay, not to be rude, but I sometimes feel as though we have a few too many people around that are just plain stupid or beyond ignorant.

Now that Tesla/Elon has transitioned from "Top-of-the-Line P100D's loaners," to "What did the Uber driver show up with?" I just rode with two Uber drivers. (Yellow boarder MCU UV "fix" which will be "Goodwill" as this defect is not a defect. Of course it's not.)

Each Uber driver drove mega-miles every year, yet both were in two ICE SUV's.

Not sure why inertia is so powerful, but how could they be so clueless as to still be driving ICE vehicles?

Both had a garage.

Both have electricity in said garages. (In Texas, electrical boxes are usually in the garage so adding a NEMA 14-50 would cost about $150, or ~$30 if DIY.)

Yet I have yet to meet even a single Uber or Lyft driver that's transitioned to an EV; I am at a loss.

A Toyota Camry costs more than a Model 3, and this cost difference would be far more massive for someone knocking off 200+ miles a day. With Uber and Lyft deceasing driver compensation, why can't these guys figure this out? Can't they find a Third Grade math program on YouTube to help them do the math?

Tesla Model 3 Cost of Ownership Slightly Cheaper Than a Camry | Loup Ventures

  • The bottom line: Model 3 is a superior car (electric, safer, Autopilot) compared to a Camry, and is slightly cheaper to own and operate over 5 years.
  • Average all-in cost per mile for a Model 3 is $0.46, compared to the Camry LE at $0.49, and Audi A5 at $0.80.
 

ewoodrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2018
5,285
3,733
Buford, GA
I'll agree with you that it is amazing that how many people can be clueless.
You don't seem to realize that Uber/Lyft drivers don't buy a car as a rental property, they use their own vehicle. Most Uber/Lyft drivers are driving because they don't have the income to buy a nice car.

Not to be rude, but it is indeed how many people, such as yourself, are just plain stupid or beyond ignorant.
The average driver makes about $40,000 per year. How can they afford a Tesla (and not live in it)?

That's why you see the multi-year old junkers on the road.
 

PhantomX

Member
Sep 29, 2016
464
403
Irvine
Okay, not to be rude, but I sometimes feel as though we have a few too many people around that are just plain stupid or beyond ignorant.

Now that Tesla/Elon has transitioned from "Top-of-the-Line P100D's loaners," to "What did the Uber driver show up with?" I just rode with two Uber drivers. (Yellow boarder MCU UV "fix" which will be "Goodwill" as this defect is not a defect. Of course it's not.)

Each Uber driver drove mega-miles every year, yet both were in two ICE SUV's.

Not sure why inertia is so powerful, but how could they be so clueless as to still be driving ICE vehicles?

Both had a garage.

Both have electricity in said garages. (In Texas, electrical boxes are usually in the garage so adding a NEMA 14-50 would cost about $150, or ~$30 if DIY.)

Yet I have yet to meet even a single Uber or Lyft driver that's transitioned to an EV; I am at a loss.

A Toyota Camry costs more than a Model 3, and this cost difference would be far more massive for someone knocking off 200+ miles a day. With Uber and Lyft deceasing driver compensation, why can't these guys figure this out? Can't they find a Third Grade math program on YouTube to help them do the math?

Tesla Model 3 Cost of Ownership Slightly Cheaper Than a Camry | Loup Ventures

  • The bottom line: Model 3 is a superior car (electric, safer, Autopilot) compared to a Camry, and is slightly cheaper to own and operate over 5 years.
  • Average all-in cost per mile for a Model 3 is $0.46, compared to the Camry LE at $0.49, and Audi A5 at $0.80.

Not sure how the person come up with the maintenance and insurance numbers, but my experience is a Tesla (whether my Model 3 or the Model X before) is always the most expensive car to insure in our family. That's compared to the Porsche Cayman, BMW M3, Lexus RX, Toyota Prius, and others we have owned before. Also, Toyota is cheap to maintain. Even if you do the maintenance at dealer, you are looking at most $1000 for oil changes in 5 years and may be a few hundred more for some of the other services. If you go outside, you can service a Camry without issue for way cheaper.

Also, the study takes into account the residual, which is not important for the upfront cost of buying the car. For many people driving Uber and other ride service, you need low cost up front to start the business.

Lastly, you need to take into account of refueling/recharging when driving these services, and at least here in So. Cal., supercharging fee is quite expensive. Based on my recent calculation, it's about the same as running a Prius. Charging at home is only cheap at night, and it takes a long time to charge enough range to have a viable ride share service. That could easily be 4 to 7 hours of time not used to earn money if you are charging during the day time.
 

TSLA Pilot

Active Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,796
2,491
United States
I'll agree with you that it is amazing that how many people can be clueless.
You don't seem to realize that Uber/Lyft drivers don't buy a car as a rental property, they use their own vehicle. Most Uber/Lyft drivers are driving because they don't have the income to buy a nice car.

Not to be rude, but it is indeed how many people, such as yourself, are just plain stupid or beyond ignorant.
The average driver makes about $40,000 per year. How can they afford a Tesla (and not live in it)?

That's why you see the multi-year old junkers on the road.

Thank you for your insights.

I'm still not getting it.

An Uber or Lyft can't be over "x" years old. Some of these guys are buying a new car every year, at least the ones I ride with, as they rack up so many miles every year and don't want to go over 100k miles.

THE TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP IS LESS WITH A MODEL 3 SR+.

Please help me understand: Why does any sane person want to spend more, yet get less (no autopilot, less safety, more NVH, more repairs, more maintenance, etc.), and dump unlimited GHG's (for free, yes, for NOW) that threatens all life on our only planet?

The utter insanity of it all makes my head hurt; please make it go away.
 

TSLA Pilot

Active Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,796
2,491
United States
Not sure how the person come up with the maintenance and insurance numbers, but my experience is a Tesla (whether my Model 3 or the Model X before) is always the most expensive car to insure in our family. That's compared to the Porsche Cayman, BMW M3, Lexus RX, Toyota Prius, and others we have owned before. Also, Toyota is cheap to maintain. Even if you do the maintenance at dealer, you are looking at most $1000 for oil changes in 5 years and may be a few hundred more for some of the other services. If you go outside, you can service a Camry without issue for way cheaper.

Also, the study takes into account the residual, which is not important for the upfront cost of buying the car. For many people driving Uber and other ride service, you need low cost up front to start the business.

Lastly, you need to take into account of refueling/recharging when driving these services, and at least here in So. Cal., supercharging fee is quite expensive. Based on my recent calculation, it's about the same as running a Prius. Charging at home is only cheap at night, and it takes a long time to charge enough range to have a viable ride share service. That could easily be 4 to 7 hours of time not used to earn money if you are charging during the day time.

Okay, I have read your points, but meet you with my caveats/stipulations: the drivers in question sleep at least a few hours every day (or so we all hope), nor do they drive every waking hour. (Food, elimination, off time, etc.)

They have garages at a home.

Those garages have electricity.

A Model 3 should charge at about 30 mph, or so I'd guess? Thus, if they were "off" and sleeping, eating, etc. for 8 hours, that's more than enough to fully charge a Model 3 SR+.

The use rate for a Supercharger would vary, but it would be token--just enough to get home, most likely, from a far-away drop off (and maybe get a bite to eat).

Lastly, residual value at Trade-In matters for these guys that get a new car every 1 or 2 years. A used Tesla Model 3 appears to hold its value very well, and at 100,000 miles should be worth a bunch more than an equivalent Camry, especially as a Camry will never get smarter, have more features, or do more than the day was sold, while the opposite is true of any Model 3 . . . .

So the question remains in play, or are we just dealing with people that can't see the obvious unless someone spells it out for them one letter at a time?
 
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SSedan

Active Member
Jul 24, 2017
2,948
2,323
Greenville Wisconsin
I love my S but it has needed more repair by 90k than any other vehicle my wife or I have ever owned, including my wife's same year few thousand miles more Impala.

The 3 is still new, too new to have developed a long solid reliably reputation for taxi drivers. Tesla service is considered slow and poor in many areas too so of they have issues........a basic mass produced car is cheaper, easier and faster to get fixed.

YOU and your crap attitude towards people who make a choice other than the one you did are a HUGE hurdle for Tesla to overcome. Attitudes like yours are wildly off-putting and don't help EV expansion.
 

SOULPEDL

Supporting Member
Jul 25, 2016
3,293
12,854
Arizona
Okay, not to be rude, but I sometimes feel as though we have a few too many people around that are just plain stupid or beyond ignorant.

Now that Tesla/Elon has transitioned from "Top-of-the-Line P100D's loaners," to "What did the Uber driver show up with?" I just rode with two Uber drivers. (Yellow boarder MCU UV "fix" which will be "Goodwill" as this defect is not a defect. Of course it's not.)

Each Uber driver drove mega-miles every year, yet both were in two ICE SUV's.

Not sure why inertia is so powerful, but how could they be so clueless as to still be driving ICE vehicles?

Both had a garage.

Both have electricity in said garages. (In Texas, electrical boxes are usually in the garage so adding a NEMA 14-50 would cost about $150, or ~$30 if DIY.)

Yet I have yet to meet even a single Uber or Lyft driver that's transitioned to an EV; I am at a loss.

A Toyota Camry costs more than a Model 3, and this cost difference would be far more massive for someone knocking off 200+ miles a day. With Uber and Lyft deceasing driver compensation, why can't these guys figure this out? Can't they find a Third Grade math program on YouTube to help them do the math?

Tesla Model 3 Cost of Ownership Slightly Cheaper Than a Camry | Loup Ventures

  • The bottom line: Model 3 is a superior car (electric, safer, Autopilot) compared to a Camry, and is slightly cheaper to own and operate over 5 years.
  • Average all-in cost per mile for a Model 3 is $0.46, compared to the Camry LE at $0.49, and Audi A5 at $0.80.

I'm asking the same question on renting solar - no strings, not even install or cancellation fees. Obviously people like to stay in their lane, hard to change an opinion. (FYI, I'm waiting on an install of solar from Tesla, that's an even better deal than renting). I have 3 friends that I told recently about this free solar install, all smart people, and they trust my technical advise. I still don't see them calling Tesla. People, this is not T-Mobile or some other carrier that keeps jacking with pricing.

FYI, my brother is buying a Model 3 (actually placed a deposit) for the purpose of using it for Uber/Lyft until Tesla turns on the their driving network. You know, in the last Conf Call, someone asked if Tesla could start the TN now and get things going. He looked interested and I believe he said he'd look into that.

Any tweet updates on this from Elon I wonder?
 

PhantomX

Member
Sep 29, 2016
464
403
Irvine
Okay, I have read your points, but meet you with my caveats/stipulations: the drivers in question sleep at least a few hours every day (or so we all hope), nor do they drive every waking hour. (Food, elimination, off time, etc.)

They have garages at a home.

Those garages have electricity.

A Model 3 should charge at about 30 mph, or so I'd guess? Thus, if they were "off" and sleeping, eating, etc. for 8 hours, that's more than enough to fully charge a Model 3 SR+.

The use rate for a Supercharger would vary, but it would be token--just enough to get home, most likely, from a far-away drop off (and maybe get a bite to eat).

Lastly, residual value at Trade-In matters for these guys that get a new car every 1 or 2 years. A used Tesla Model 3 appears to hold its value very well, and at 100,000 miles should be worth a bunch more than an equivalent Camry, especially as a Camry will never get smarter, have more features, or do more than the day was sold, while the opposite is true of any Model 3 . . . .

So the question remains in play, or are we just dealing with people that can't see the obvious unless someone spells it out for them one letter at a time?

If they are changing cars often, and they likely use services like Fair or other type of used car services that works with Uber/Lyft. There are also a lot of lease returns out there that still look like new cars, and can be purchased for very low price compared to new.

I would think a good productive Uber/Lyft driver will need to drive a hundred miles a day. For my Model 3 MR, I can only extract about 200 miles out of the supposed 250 miles (90% of full charge) in a typical CA freeway, due to the high speed when there are free flowing traffic. And the superchargers here are almost near capacity all the time, so it can be hit and miss trying to get a spot right away. Also, most of the superchargers are paired, so the car won't charge as fast as it can. All in all, you can easily lose 1hr+ of time charging the car while other drivers are making money because you are not on the road. Until an EV can recharge as fast as an ICE car refuels, the ICE car (especially PHEV) will likely always have a cost/benefit advantage when used for ride sharing service.
 
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SOULPEDL

Supporting Member
Jul 25, 2016
3,293
12,854
Arizona
I love my S but it has needed more repair by 90k than any other vehicle my wife or I have ever owned, including my wife's same year few thousand miles more Impala.

The 3 is still new, too new to have developed a long solid reliably reputation for taxi drivers. Tesla service is considered slow and poor in many areas too so of they have issues........a basic mass produced car is cheaper, easier and faster to get fixed.

YOU and your crap attitude towards people who make a choice other than the one you did are a HUGE hurdle for Tesla to overcome. Attitudes like yours are wildly off-putting and don't help EV expansion.

Agree on the patronizing of the public by the OP, but the question is valid. I bet most can't afford even the down payment. Fact is, Uber is not a money maker (unless you're on the BoD of course). Drivers don't own the car to make money, they USE (exploit) the car because they can and that's not a valid business strategy or plan.

Re: "The 3 is still new". It's not just another wankel rotary engine. Your S help all of us get to the Model 3 reliability. I've had in depth conversations with the shop on this topic. Inverter seals that blow and gear oil flows into the electronics, all fixed on the 3 (so they say). All the key drive components, including Battery, have been greatly improved. If you only had a brain, you'd upgrade now! (Lol, just filling in for the OP...).

BUT, if you need a repair out of warranty, correct, it is pricey... (now). Parts pricing could go down once volume really kicks in and they get ahead of demand curve a bit (maybe never). Service centers are still "trying" to make a profit. So there's not a lot of waste in the system here and they're not trying to subsidize the dealership. Recall Elon also said, "The best option is to not need any repairs at all." But it takes time and quality $$$ parts from top to bottom before that happens. That's what's expensive. This car's apparently engineered for 3 battery changes and 1,000,000 mi. Pretty hard to beat, just don't hit a tree!
 
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SOULPEDL

Supporting Member
Jul 25, 2016
3,293
12,854
Arizona
Thank you for your insights.

I'm still not getting it.

An Uber or Lyft can't be over "x" years old. Some of these guys are buying a new car every year, at least the ones I ride with, as they rack up so many miles every year and don't want to go over 100k miles.

THE TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP IS LESS WITH A MODEL 3 SR+.

Please help me understand: Why does any sane person want to spend more, yet get less (no autopilot, less safety, more NVH, more repairs, more maintenance, etc.), and dump unlimited GHG's (for free, yes, for NOW) that threatens all life on our only planet?

The utter insanity of it all makes my head hurt; please make it go away.

Eat some lettuce... deep breath. Not sure you read all the posts, some good counter arguments. I would ignore the jam in Ca for superchargers, I think that's just a local problem from the sheer Tesla pop density; I have no prob here in Az. You could include the recent Tesla insurance as an advantage (not sure why someone mentioned they pay more?)

Why don't you model the numbers (or find some) and backup your claims. From the comments, charging time seems an important factor, but still speculation as to the full impact given sleep and eating etc...

Anyone made the switch yet to compare?
 

SSedan

Active Member
Jul 24, 2017
2,948
2,323
Greenville Wisconsin
On upgrading to a 3 I am skeptical if it has the space for my wife and daughters to road trip, plus with the financial beating I have taken even having bought this car used the wife won't be onboard for an upgrade. I have a 2014 P85 approaching 90k and figure I am in $10k a year in depreciation, plus the suspension rattles likely means I need to spend a few grand in repairs before I could sell it, besides the repairs I already have into it.
Besides I don't like the 3 too small, not attractive, don't like the single screen etc. Not a bad car but not for me.
 
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TSLA Pilot

Active Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,796
2,491
United States
I love my S but it has needed more repair by 90k than any other vehicle my wife or I have ever owned, including my wife's same year few thousand miles more Impala.

The 3 is still new, too new to have developed a long solid reliably reputation for taxi drivers. Tesla service is considered slow and poor in many areas too so of they have issues........a basic mass produced car is cheaper, easier and faster to get fixed.

YOU and your crap attitude towards people who make a choice other than the one you did are a HUGE hurdle for Tesla to overcome. Attitudes like yours are wildly off-putting and don't help EV expansion.

I'm sorry that the economic facts of Teslas vs. ICE vehicles, and the chemistry and physics that have caused our planet's future to be seriously degraded, are something that you find to be a "crap attitude."

Perhaps if more people were better informed of the facts there would be less concern about "attitude" and more for "reality."

p.s. As for your reliability sample size of one, it speaks for itself.
 
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TSLA Pilot

Active Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,796
2,491
United States
If they are changing cars often, and they likely use services like Fair or other type of used car services that works with Uber/Lyft. There are also a lot of lease returns out there that still look like new cars, and can be purchased for very low price compared to new.

I would think a good productive Uber/Lyft driver will need to drive a hundred miles a day. For my Model 3 MR, I can only extract about 200 miles out of the supposed 250 miles (90% of full charge) in a typical CA freeway, due to the high speed when there are free flowing traffic. And the superchargers here are almost near capacity all the time, so it can be hit and miss trying to get a spot right away. Also, most of the superchargers are paired, so the car won't charge as fast as it can. All in all, you can easily lose 1hr+ of time charging the car while other drivers are making money because you are not on the road. Until an EV can recharge as fast as an ICE car refuels, the ICE car (especially PHEV) will likely always have a cost/benefit advantage when used for ride sharing service.

The key stipulation above is that the driver MUST HAVE a garage with a 240-volt outlet. Then he/she leaves with a full "Tank" every day, and can come home empty.

Supercharger use would be an outlier.
 

TSLA Pilot

Active Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,796
2,491
United States
Agree on the patronizing of the public by the OP, but the question is valid. I bet most can't afford even the down payment. Fact is, Uber is not a money maker (unless you're on the BoD of course). Drivers don't own the car to make money, they USE (exploit) the car because they can and that's not a valid business strategy or plan.

Re: "The 3 is still new". It's not just another wankel rotary engine. Your S help all of us get to the Model 3 reliability. I've had in depth conversations with the shop on this topic. Inverter seals that blow and gear oil flows into the electronics, all fixed on the 3 (so they say). All the key drive components, including Battery, have been greatly improved. If you only had a brain, you'd upgrade now! (Lol, just filling in for the OP...).

BUT, if you need a repair out of warranty, correct, it is pricey... (now). Parts pricing could go down once volume really kicks in and they get ahead of demand curve a bit (maybe never). Service centers are still "trying" to make a profit. So there's not a lot of waste in the system here and they're not trying to subsidize the dealership. Recall Elon also said, "The best option is to not need any repairs at all." But it takes time and quality $$$ parts from top to bottom before that happens. That's what's expensive. This car's apparently engineered for 3 battery changes and 1,000,000 mi. Pretty hard to beat, just don't hit a tree!

Wow, I didn't know that exposing and expanding on facts is now considered "patronizing."

I guess it's the new normal: uncomfortable facts ='s some must be being rude?

My Response
WRT fixing the car: the motor and battery are covered for what, 100k or 120k? (And 8 years or just 4; can't recall?) As for the rest, there's the ESA for peace of mind (and I'm assuming it'll apply to the Model 3 and Y as well?):

Extended Service Agreement

Conclusion
Still awaiting legitimate reasons why anyone would continue to use an ICE vehicle regular Lyft or Uber ops . . . .

p.s. Downpayment? If the drivers in question are buying a new ICE vehicle every year or two, we can assume they have the money to buy those (since they're not stolen). Any bank would line up to loan on a Tesla given the increased residual value and lower cost of operation, no?
 

SOULPEDL

Supporting Member
Jul 25, 2016
3,293
12,854
Arizona
I was just pondering if some of the posts here were FUD related, attempting to head off a potential wave of Uber drivers buying more Teslas. Just a thought.
Wow, I didn't know that exposing and expanding on facts is now considered "patronizing."

I guess it's the new normal: uncomfortable facts ='s some must be being rude?

My Response
WRT fixing the car: the motor and battery are covered for what, 100k or 120k? (And 8 years or just 4; can't recall?) As for the rest, there's the ESA for peace of mind (and I'm assuming it'll apply to the Model 3 and Y as well?):

Extended Service Agreement

Conclusion
Still awaiting legitimate reasons why anyone would continue to use an ICE vehicle regular Lyft or Uber ops . . . .

p.s. Downpayment? If the drivers in question are buying a new ICE vehicle every year or two, we can assume they have the money to buy those (since they're not stolen). Any bank would line up to loan on a Tesla given the increased residual value and lower cost of operation, no?

Oh man, I was commenting on someone else's slam of you above.

I'm outta here... look up the word patronize then read your post.
 
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TSLA Pilot

Active Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,796
2,491
United States
Eat some lettuce... deep breath. Not sure you read all the posts, some good counter arguments. I would ignore the jam in Ca for superchargers, I think that's just a local problem from the sheer Tesla pop density; I have no prob here in Az. You could include the recent Tesla insurance as an advantage (not sure why someone mentioned they pay more?)

Why don't you model the numbers (or find some) and backup your claims. From the comments, charging time seems an important factor, but still speculation as to the full impact given sleep and eating etc...

Anyone made the switch yet to compare?

Of course, all of these comparison are junk if your roof has solar panels--then the savings over ICE are much larger. Our electric bill was about $16 (US) TOTAL for the past ten or eleven months, this with two EV's and a 3,300-ish square foot home in a hot climate.

Here you go:

Shocker: Tesla Model 3 vs. Honda Civic — 15 Cost Comparisons Over 5 Years | CleanTechnica

Tesla Model 3 Cheaper Than Honda Accord — 15 Cost Comparisons [Updated] | CleanTechnica

p.s. I posit that the depreciation of ICE vehicles noted in the examples above will be far greater as they become massively obsolete within the next three to five years. Thus bringing us back to the original question: Why would anyone still want to use an ICE vehicle for Uber and Lyft services?
 

TSLA Pilot

Active Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,796
2,491
United States
You won't make too much money if you only limit yourself to a 200 miles trip a day. Likely not enough to cover car payment and insurance.

Interesting.

I'll have to check other drivers for more data points on how far they drive every day. Perhaps that's the "tall pole" in the tent that's holding them back?
 

PhantomX

Member
Sep 29, 2016
464
403
Irvine
Interesting.

I'll have to check other drivers for more data points on how far they drive every day. Perhaps that's the "tall pole" in the tent that's holding them back?
Indeed says average Uber driver makes $19.62/hr. Factor in tax, depreciation, fuel, and maintenance, it's likely going to be close to $15/hr. I don't think anyone making that would get a $35k car. It would be challenging just to cover living expense with that income.


Uber Driver Salaries in California
 

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