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TSLA Pilot

Active Member
Mar 12, 2013
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Yes, 2 14-50 outlets actually (used to have 2 EV's)


I do charge when I am sleeping at night. But if a ride share service require more than 200 miles a day, home charging is way too slow.


Supercharger, yes. LR, not really


I have not looked at Tesla insurance, but my experience with Tesla service from previous experience tells me to shy away from anything that require human interactions at Tesla. I can tell you that AAA quoted us $3K/year at one time for a Model X, which is more expensive than our 3 others combined at that time (BMW M3, i3, and Toyota Sienna). That's with all discount myself and my wife have and clean driving record. For Model 3, AAA was again very expensive, so we switch to Costco Ameriprise. Even then, it would have been cheaper to insure a more expensive luxury car.
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Thank you; very informative.

Don't take this wrong, but I hope you're an outlier and that most others will have a better "fit" with EV's in Lyft/Uber service.

This application should, eventually (if not already), be an excellent application for Tesla EV's, and it will greatly reduce GHG dumping.
 

PhantomX

Member
Sep 29, 2016
464
403
Irvine
Agreed. I want to see more EV out there too. Hopefully infrastructure and battery/motor technology advancements will make that a reality sooner rather than later.
 

ewoodrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2018
5,285
3,732
Buford, GA
True. I am speaking strictly from So. Cal. I know many people who's daily commute is near 100 miles. Everything is so spread out here, we can put in 100 miles per day on weekends just driving within the nearby cities to take care errands.
But you generally don't Uber 100 miles. It's commonly less than 5, unless an airport run.
100 miles is a really expensive fare, I'm guessing $200+.
 

PhantomX

Member
Sep 29, 2016
464
403
Irvine
But you generally don't Uber 100 miles. It's commonly less than 5, unless an airport run.
100 miles is a really expensive fare, I'm guessing $200+.

Although housing is dense here in So. Cal., stores and shops do spread pretty far away from each other. A typical restaurant to home could easily be 10 miles one way, since some cities do zone residential away from major shopping centers and vise versa. I would also think Uber driver would need to drive around to find the best opportunities? Perhaps someone with Uber/Lyft experience can weigh in on this?
 

afadeev

Member
Feb 28, 2019
694
629
NYC
Don't take this wrong, but I hope you're an outlier and that most others will have a better "fit" with EV's in Lyft/Uber service.

I don't think it's a question of "Fit" as much as Economics and practicality.
The taxi marketplace is telling you what their reality is, and what car types make them the most money. If you don't get why, go and ask a buddy who Ubers, or try it out for yourself.

Proclaiming that they are all ignorant idiots, and you are the only genius, testifies to the opposite.


Not sure how the person come up with the maintenance and insurance numbers, but my experience is a Tesla (whether my Model 3 or the Model X before) is always the most expensive car to insure in our family.

Yep, same here.
Tesla is, by far, the most expensive to ensure, and my other cars are more valuable.
And God help us all should we ever get into an accident, or need service. Massive down time (2x-5x of that for a normal car), and extra labor mark-ups, both of which easily explain the higher insurance rates.


Lastly, you need to take into account of refueling/recharging when driving these services, and at least here in So. Cal., supercharging fee is quite expensive. Based on my recent calculation, it's about the same as running a Prius. Charging at home is only cheap at night

Charging at home is, for me, 1/3 the cost of using a Tesla Supercharger, but does require overnight down time.
Works for me personally, but would have been out of the question if I relied on the EV for business transportation (taxi or otherwise).

Tesla's Supercharger service agreement now outright prohibits commercial use, though I'm not sure how that is enforced.

A friend of mine dabbled into Uber driving. Used to put 300 to 500 miles on the car per day, most of those were unpaid driving to pickup the next passenger, or returning from a trip to a middle of nowhere.
Prolonged downtime for EV charging was out of the question.

Accelerated wear'n'tear on the car (tires, brakes, suspension, bent wheels from hitting potholes, damage to the interior, cleaning puke and piss, etc) made him realize that this was a poor use of his time and equipment, so he moved on after 3-4 months of doing it full time.

Now does it part-time, mostly because he loves socializing, and passengers are his captive audience :D

a
 

TSLA Pilot

Active Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,795
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United States
What is your evidence of this? Do you have facts? From my experience, typical Uber I ride in is ~5 years old.

No, I don't have "facts." I spoke of THOSE SPECIFIC UBER DRIVERS as the ones that met the profile that began this thread.

It's the guys and gals that do this for a living, that are buying a new car regularly, every year or two, that I would assume would be a perfect match for a Model 3 LR (or even an SR+ for those that have many rides but low total mileage on a daily basis).

The question still stands, for the most part. Tesla really needs to open the Supercharger Network to these Uber and Lyft drivers; it's a great way to stop dumping a lot of GHG's, and it'll also help expand the SC Network, something overdue in the CA market anyway.
 
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Ulmo

Active Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,328
4,427
Vienna Woods, Aptos, California
I am not an Uber/Lyft driver, so my comparison is ICE vs EV in general and looking at price. Then I generalize to the Uber/Lyft use theory.

I own my ICE vehicle for $4,747 plus about a thousand dollars tax. I have the pink slip. It is a nicer car than any Tesla out there. It has door pockets and multilayer sound resistant windows. It is designed for comfort, not Tesla concussions and cheap plastic interior parts falling off all the time like the rear cup holders. My feet stay warm in cold weather. And as icing on the cake, it allows me to go long distance at high speed without having to worry about battery degradation and stopping at charging stops that have no food or bathrooms, and it does so very comfortably.

Granted, I would prefer an electric car, but none are available at that comfort level and price point, and until they are, I'm not sure I'll get one. The market charges the highest price it can get, and right now, it can get a very high price for electric vehicles. Here in USA, I couldn't get a Tesla in decent condition for less than $50,000. That is over ten times as much as an ICE car. But problem is, even if I could, I'm not sure I would want to, because to even get a portion of the comfort level I have now, I would have to try the Model X Raven for around 20 times the cost of an ICE car, around $100,000. That's a huge amount of money. No thanks! It doesn't even have door pockets, and I'm not allowed to drive in most areas of town without being targeted by mobsters. So not only would I need the $100,000, but I'd also need the $3,000,000 plus massive tax deductions by being part of the right political party necessary to buy the lifestyle necessary to own that car in the first place.

No one who can afford a Tesla works for Uber or Lyft. They don't have the money.

Anyone who can't understand that is really retarded.

Even if Teslas did cost only $5,000, it would take a long time before Uber and Lyft drivers could make it home without being killed for it, since most stupid mobsters won't find out it sells for cheap for about a year or so.

But it's not only that: there are many people who want an electric car, but it doesn't meet their needs for the price points available. Some of us want higher quality which we can only afford in ICE cars. Others who don't care as much about quality and would accept crappier interior qualities just can't afford Teslas.

Right now, Tesla can sell every car they make. Why would they charge less money?

That keeps it out of the hands of Uber and Lyft drivers.

Finally, let's say Teslas were $5,000, had door pockets, had cup holders, had sound proofing windows, had comfortable seats that don't make you feel intense pain within 15 minutes, etc. etc. I.e., a nice interior. Would a Uber or Lyft driver get one? Not for long: they'd find out soon that many customers in areas with any non-short people do not fit in their cars. The leg room, hip room, torso room, arm room, and head room in Teslas in the back seats are terrible. New models from Japanese manufacturers are especially made for Uber and Lyft with a huge amount of room in every dimension (in the back seats), and I've ridden in them; they are fantastic. I'm talking about models I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole because all the drivers are crap, but when I actually had to sit in the 2019-2020 models during a Lyft ride, I had more room and comfort in the rear seat than I've ever had in the front seat of any Tesla! I immediately remarked that to the driver, who said yes, it is a new Lyft/Uber special design upgrade by the manufacturers for that year model. It is truly fantastic! I assume it was some type of hybrid drivetrain.

Also, the crazy high price of electricity and the insanely long time it takes to refuel an electric car would make them terrible for Uber and Lyft drivers, who are trying to make money, not spend time at shopping malls. A hybrid vehicle sips gas, but city driving kills electric vehicle range in Model S & X; I admit I haven't done city driving in a Model 3, so I don't know that particular.

For now, Teslas are still best for short small framed jockeys with a lot of money who want to spurt around the race track for half a second and don't care about concussions or long drives, and Teslas are good enough for some other people. But it will be a while before I can pick up a used EQS for $10,000. They haven't even finished building the manufacturing line for that model yet. None are even delivered! The Etron is selling in small numbers, and won't hit the sub-$10,000 used markets for a long time. If you go down market, maybe the Eniro is decent, but I admit, when I test drove it, I forgot what the rear seats felt like, and those things are still many tens of thousands of dollars. That's not a great lineup for an Uber/Lyft driver.

Edit: I was talking about cash prices. You can't buy a Tesla for loan prices (for Uber/Lyft income). It is entirely unaffordable. Insurance makes the car about $200,000 to purchase. You have to make $200,000/year to afford a car loan for a Tesla, or live in a shanty town and still make $130,000 a year.
 
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Ulmo

Active Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,328
4,427
Vienna Woods, Aptos, California
Okay, I have read your points, but meet you with my caveats/stipulations: the drivers in question sleep at least a few hours every day (or so we all hope), nor do they drive every waking hour. (Food, elimination, off time, etc.)

They have garages at a home.

Those garages have electricity.
That's rare for Uber and Lyft drivers. I'm glad that you budgeted them elimination time. How generous of you. I don't know what they'd do without you.
 
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Ulmo

Active Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,328
4,427
Vienna Woods, Aptos, California
Any tweet updates on this from Elon I wonder?
A tweet update from Elon won't move the needle for an Uber/Lyft driver making a purchase decision today. It will be 10 to 15 years before an Uber/Lyft driver can afford a nice electric car purpose built for their job.

Will cars not drive themselves by then?

If self-driving cars come out in under a decade, there will never be a majority of Uber/Lyft drivers with electric cars. However, if it takes 15 years for self-driving cars to come out, then I predict we will see at least some Uber/Lyft drivers in nice electric cars.
 

Ulmo

Active Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,328
4,427
Vienna Woods, Aptos, California
He paid cash for the car, so every payment he gets from Uber/Lyft goes into his pocket except for the money spent on the new set of tires.
Did he have money left over from prior income, owning a home that appreciated, etc.? I doubt he could afford that off Uber/Lyft money. He's gambling with repair; repair could easily ground him. He must not carry comprehensive insurance: one crash and he's done for. And his passengers must all come from the areas of town where there are no tall people.
He told me when the time comes for a new car, he would get another Tesla as long as he could get the free supercharger benefit.
Free SuperCharging is a key enabler for an Uber/Lyft Tesla owner. It is a limited perk that will only be available to a limited number of people. Tesla is actively sweeping up the cars that had it and eliminating that perk.

Just a nit to another poster: the original SuperCharger terms did not forbid commercial use, and get passed down to new owners if they buy used from previous owners without Tesla as an intermediary. Just don't crash them! They are a limited run. I predict a dwindling number of poor people using grandfathered SuperCharger terms that allow commercial use over the next 20 years, and Tesla trying to crash those cars so they become disqualified (take it in for service: "oops! we smashed the car by accident. Have a free Model 3. Sorry about your SuperCharger access!" "But I don't want a free Model 3! I want my car with free SuperCharger access!" Tesla mechanic bears his teeth and the devil comes out. Lawyers on his side.) Or some unsuspecting grandfathered owner signs a gotcha-contract for some perceived benefit that eliminates the commercial SuperCharger access.

I bet there is a devilish Board of Directors director that has a list of current grandfathered commercial use free SuperCharging Teslas on a thumb drive stored in their safe somewhere, and they update the list and try to eliminate a few of those grandfathered free commercial SuperCharging ownerships every quarter, one peck at a time; I wonder what methods they use. It wouldn't be hard to send a forced software update that fries the car after X miles of "misuse" or "lack of maintenance", or introduces gremlins that makes it unusable. While I wish this isn't the case, it's hard to imagine there isn't a push to reduce the number of cheap free-SuperCharging-for-commercial-use Teslas on the roads.
 
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TSLA Pilot

Active Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,795
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United States
I know this is only one data point: A couple of months ago I was in Chicago and my Uber driver picked me up in a Model S.
He purchased the Model S specifically to improve his income (he is a full time Uber/Lyft driver). Here is what he told me:
- Purchased the car used
- Looked for a Black/Black Model S because you're eligible for black car service
- Gets free Supercharger benefits and only re-charges at the Supercharger network
- In the 60,000 miles that he has driven this car, he has had no fuel or maintenance costs except for changing the tires (which already had some wear when he purchased the used car).
He paid cash for the car, so every payment he gets from Uber/Lyft goes into his pocket except for the money spent on the new set of tires.
He told me when the time comes for a new car, he would get another Tesla as long as he could get the free supercharger benefit.

Ah, yes, an Uber driver that "gets it."

See, they do exist, but appear to be rare.

This could also apply to the Model 3, especially given that it costs LESS than a Camry/Accord . . . and with the stipulations from the original post of having a garage with a NEMA 14-50 outlet, preferably powered by solar panels.
 

wycolo

Active Member
May 16, 2012
3,095
429
WA & WY
'Free supercharging for life' of a Tesla would be legally defensible should a Service Center somehow destroy that car.
--
 

David29

Supporting Member
Aug 1, 2015
2,239
1,878
DEDHAM, MA
Okay, not to be rude, but I sometimes feel as though we have a few too many people around that are just plain stupid or beyond ignorant.

Now that Tesla/Elon has transitioned from "Top-of-the-Line P100D's loaners," to "What did the Uber driver show up with?" I just rode with two Uber drivers. (Yellow boarder MCU UV "fix" which will be "Goodwill" as this defect is not a defect. Of course it's not.)

Each Uber driver drove mega-miles every year, yet both were in two ICE SUV's.

Not sure why inertia is so powerful, but how could they be so clueless as to still be driving ICE vehicles?

Both had a garage.

Both have electricity in said garages. (In Texas, electrical boxes are usually in the garage so adding a NEMA 14-50 would cost about $150, or ~$30 if DIY.)

Yet I have yet to meet even a single Uber or Lyft driver that's transitioned to an EV; I am at a loss.

A Toyota Camry costs more than a Model 3, and this cost difference would be far more massive for someone knocking off 200+ miles a day. With Uber and Lyft deceasing driver compensation, why can't these guys figure this out? Can't they find a Third Grade math program on YouTube to help them do the math?

Tesla Model 3 Cost of Ownership Slightly Cheaper Than a Camry | Loup Ventures

  • The bottom line: Model 3 is a superior car (electric, safer, Autopilot) compared to a Camry, and is slightly cheaper to own and operate over 5 years.
  • Average all-in cost per mile for a Model 3 is $0.46, compared to the Camry LE at $0.49, and Audi A5 at $0.80.

As a Model S owner and an occasional user of Uber and Lyft, I'd have to say I would much prefer to ride in a Camry back seat than in a Model 3 back seat. I have ridden in Camry back seats a number of times, and in Model 3 back seats twice and would rather not spend any significant time in the Model 3 back seats -- much too tight and too low. So if you are taking a ride with two people or more, a Camry is much more comfortable for the passenger. Plus the insurance on a Camry is pretty reasonable as i recall. Not sure about the Model 3....but i would not be so quick to judge what Uber and Lyft drivers drive. They may have different criteria from you, or not have much choice....
 

TSLA Pilot

Active Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,795
2,476
United States
As a Model S owner and an occasional user of Uber and Lyft, I'd have to say I would much prefer to ride in a Camry back seat than in a Model 3 back seat. I have ridden in Camry back seats a number of times, and in Model 3 back seats twice and would rather not spend any significant time in the Model 3 back seats -- much too tight and too low. So if you are taking a ride with two people or more, a Camry is much more comfortable for the passenger. Plus the insurance on a Camry is pretty reasonable as i recall. Not sure about the Model 3....but i would not be so quick to judge what Uber and Lyft drivers drive. They may have different criteria from you, or not have much choice....
Yes, and they, like all others in the US, can continue to dump their GHG's with abandon, nary a worry, for at least another few years.

It's an externality--when some can dump their garbage on others--but that clock is ticking.

Given the number of miles many Uber and Lyft drivers drive, the sooner the better.

Sorry about the Model 3 back seat. Perhaps the Model Y will be better since it's taller. Either way, continued, massive GHG dumping has to end, ASAP:

News | Huge Cavity in Antarctic Glacier Signals Rapid Decay

Numerical models of ice sheets use a fixed shape to represent a cavity under the ice, rather than allowing the cavity to change and grow. The new discovery implies that this limitation most likely causes those models to underestimate how fast Thwaites is losing ice.

About the size of Florida, Thwaites Glacier is currently responsible for approximately 4 percent of global sea level rise. It holds enough ice to raise the world ocean a little over 2 feet (65 centimeters) and backstops neighboring glaciers that would raise sea levels an additional 8 feet (2.4 meters) if all the ice were lost.

[truncated]

Since Math can be hard for some, I'll help: 2 + 8 = 10 feet.

How much of Florida and Louisiana and California are underwater at 2 and 8 and 10 feet of sea level rise, not to mention the rest of the planet?

I hope you understand why you may have to "sacrifice" an inch or two precious rear seat room to have a usable planet.

Capiche?
 

KSilver2000

Active Member
Dec 23, 2017
1,368
1,954
CA
Not sure how the person come up with the maintenance and insurance numbers, but my experience is a Tesla (whether my Model 3 or the Model X before) is always the most expensive car to insure in our family. That's compared to the Porsche Cayman, BMW M3, Lexus RX, Toyota Prius, and others we have owned before. Also, Toyota is cheap to maintain. Even if you do the maintenance at dealer, you are looking at most $1000 for oil changes in 5 years and may be a few hundred more for some of the other services. If you go outside, you can service a Camry without issue for way cheaper.

Also, the study takes into account the residual, which is not important for the upfront cost of buying the car. For many people driving Uber and other ride service, you need low cost up front to start the business.

Lastly, you need to take into account of refueling/recharging when driving these services, and at least here in So. Cal., supercharging fee is quite expensive. Based on my recent calculation, it's about the same as running a Prius. Charging at home is only cheap at night, and it takes a long time to charge enough range to have a viable ride share service. That could easily be 4 to 7 hours of time not used to earn money if you are charging during the day time.

Tell me about it!

I was shocked to learn how much more it would cost to insure Tesla on my policy (and other policy quotes from different carriers). For the same car price, the Tesla cost a lot more than other luxury cars we have/had, including BMW, Cadillac, Lexus.
I think most new Tesla owners don't know of the higher insurance premium with Tesla going in.

Driving a Civic/Corolla/Accord/Camry vs a Tesla will save the average Uber/Lyft driver a "yuugge" amount in insurance premium. And as people mentioned, repair costs, if any, is also multiples more expensive than the average Honda/Toyota. And it's not like Tesla's are exactly 100% maintenance free. There's a reason why Tesla, themselves, even offer a maintenance plan. Add all those differences up, a Tesla is not the right car for the average Uber/Lyft driver making a living.
 

KSilver2000

Active Member
Dec 23, 2017
1,368
1,954
CA
As a Model S owner and an occasional user of Uber and Lyft, I'd have to say I would much prefer to ride in a Camry back seat than in a Model 3 back seat. I have ridden in Camry back seats a number of times, and in Model 3 back seats twice and would rather not spend any significant time in the Model 3 back seats -- much too tight and too low. So if you are taking a ride with two people or more, a Camry is much more comfortable for the passenger. Plus the insurance on a Camry is pretty reasonable as i recall. Not sure about the Model 3....but i would not be so quick to judge what Uber and Lyft drivers drive. They may have different criteria from you, or not have much choice....

If you thought the back of the 3 is small (which I wholeheartedly agree with), imagine how much smaller the 3rd of the Y will likely be.
The back of the 3 may look spacious with legroom space to some people, but that's because the seat is relatively short.
 

TSLA Pilot

Active Member
Mar 12, 2013
1,795
2,476
United States
If you thought the back of the 3 is small (which I wholeheartedly agree with), imagine how much smaller the 3rd of the Y will likely be.
The back of the 3 may look spacious with legroom space to some people, but that's because the seat is relatively short.

Odd. You make it sound like the back seat of a Model 3 is some kind a punishment zone.

I'll have to visit a local Tesla Gallery and take another look, but last time I checked it appeared that it would function as designed--a place to sit while riding in the back of a car. I must have missed something?

Pity that saving an entire planet's future is such a low priority--heaven forbid Uber and Lyft passengers would have to suffer the tremendous pain and agony of riding in the back seat of a Model 3. The horror!
 

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