Why did you cancel your Model 3 reservation?

[WhiskySTL]

Good read and a nice reminder, thanks for posting. I remember reading those articles when they came out and how they added to my excitement for the model 3. I have not cancelled and probably won't until I at least get to drive the car, but the S4 is still probably happening.

There are a couple things weighing on my mind when it comes to the Model 3 and each alone is not that big of a deal, but in total they are stacking up. I have serious concerns around product quality of a new design and new car by an inexperienced manufacturer at this scale. I strongly believe they will fix whatever the issues are and long term it will not be a problem, just not sure I want to pay to be along for the ride anymore. Also, it feels like they are very behind on scaling production and I don't trust the Dec to Feb timeline. Another is that after driving the Volvo XC90 which relies on a touch screen for a lot of controls, I am not sure I want even more pushed to the screen. And the weirdest one is actually my biggest pet peeve, the wiper controls. I adjust the speed often during a rain storm and I don't want to use the touch screen for that either.

Because of how I was feeling I decided to look for a back up car. Someone I would get if I decided to not buy the model 3 after driving it. I found the S4 and fell in love with the car. We didn't mean for it to happen ;-)

I am keeping my deposit with Tesla for the time being and won't move forward until December on the S4 (year to remember event) so there is still some time, but all things are point to 4 rings in my future.

Ditto, ditto, ditto.

I will probably be cancelling my reservation.

1) I have major concerns about some core controls only being accessible on a touchscreen. Sure, it looks cool, but it doesn't make functional sense and IMO isn't safe. I can do everything in my car without taking my eyes off the road, and I like it that way.

2) I have major concerns about the repair process. As I posted in another thread, a few weeks back the engine in my BMW overheated. At first, it was a nudge toward the EV... and then I experienced the immediate (in same day, out the next), polished, warrantied, and painless repair process at my local dealer and was reminded of how fantastic their service is.

3) I want Apple CarPlay & Android Auto. Tesla needs to accept that there are other companies who do certain things better than they ever will.

4) Timing... My lease is up in January. I was expecting to get my car in the April-June window I've been given, but I now seriously doubt it. I could figure something out for transportation for a few months (combo of working from home, borrowing a car, etc), but "a few months" is looking likely to turn into much more.

I'll probably be getting a BMW 440 or an Audi S4 in Nov or Dec. Once I make the final decision, I will cancel my reservation. I had hoped that a friend of mine who reserved on 3/31 would be getting his Model 3 this fall, so I could check it out in person prior to deciding, but I'm losing hope on that front as well.

I am leaning toward leasing whatever I get, though, so I can easily swap out for a Tesla or a different EV in 3 years.

 

[Sportstick]

I will stick it out right up to the point of ordering.

A lot of what will determine if I finalize my order will come down to;

1. State of builds.... reviews that cars are getting by regular owners, not die hard environmentalists or auto magazines.
2. Tax incentive - will I get the full incentive or only partial incentive for my order.
3. Availability of AWD.
4. Availability of interior color options other than black/white.

In my "perfect scenario":

1. Tesla delivers 200K vehicle April 1st.
2. Tesla then is able to rapidly ramp up delivery.
3. AWD available in September.
4. I'm able to delay my build until September when both AWD & full tax incentive are both available.
5. Tesla introduces AP 2.5 hardware into builds along with some other things like more color choices.

This is all extremely wishful thinking and has maybe 5% chance of becoming reality, but a guy can hope!

Interesting way of looking at it....my minimum threshhold is:
1. Evidence of quality, similar to your first thought
2. Interior other than black, at a minimum the ultra white

Perfect would be:
1. Tan/"natural" leather color interior
2. Delivery in the first two months of my three month window (travel issues)
3. Sirius XM actually becomes available

In the final analysis, the make-or-break really comes down to quality and interior color. I cannot/will not take a black interior.

 

[Sportstick]

Ditto, ditto, ditto.
I'll probably be getting a BMW 440 or an Audi S4 in Nov or Dec. Once I make the final decision, I will cancel my reservation.

As a current owner of both a recent BMW and Audi, there is no doubt in my mind based on my experience with product quality and corporate customer service....BMW.

 

[THXULTRA]

I will stick it out right up to the point of ordering.

A lot of what will determine if I finalize my order will come down to;

1. State of builds.... reviews that cars are getting by regular owners, not die hard environmentalists or auto magazines.
2. Tax incentive - will I get the full incentive or only partial incentive for my order.
3. Availability of AWD.
4. Availability of interior color options other than black/white.

In my "perfect scenario":

1. Tesla delivers 200K vehicle April 1st.
2. Tesla then is able to rapidly ramp up delivery.
3. AWD available in September.
4. I'm able to delay my build until September when both AWD & full tax incentive are both available.
5. Tesla introduces AP 2.5 hardware into builds along with some other things like more color choices.

This is all extremely wishful thinking and has maybe 5% chance of becoming reality, but a guy can hope!

Isn't the model 3 already auto pilot 2.5? I was under the impression the difference between ap2 and 2.5 is the interior camera.

My decision also will be greatly influenced by reviews and also how stable the car is. I don't want to be spending all my time taking the car to the service center. For me I'm hoping the car is reliable. If the car is problematic I will cancel my order and go with a model S or Audi.

Perfect scenario for me
AWD with sup 5sec 0 to 60
They can ramp up production so I can get mine by the end of next year
Some sort of tax rebate is still in place when I order.

 

[WhiskySTL]

As a current owner of both a recent BMW and Audi, there is no doubt in my mind based on my experience with product quality and corporate customer service....BMW.

Every day I go back and forth. It's likely to come down to where I can get the better deal on a car that I want. I've had a truly flawless experience over all with my 335, which makes me want to stay with what I know and have enjoyed. On the other hand, I (like granger) drove the new 2018 S4 and loved it. I also love Audi's interiors and tech (especially Virtual Cockpit). If I do lease, then I suppose that any issues with Audi service will be less of a concern for me (but still relevant).

 

[voip-ninja]

Every day I go back and forth. It's likely to come down to where I can get the better deal on a car that I want. I've had a truly flawless experience over all with my 335, which makes me want to stay with what I know and have enjoyed. On the other hand, I (like granger) drove the new 2018 S4 and loved it. I also love Audi's interiors and tech (especially Virtual Cockpit). If I do lease, then I suppose that any issues with Audi service will be less of a concern for me (but still relevant).

I have a friend with an A8 and the dealership treats him like royalty.... it probably helps that it's something like the 3rd or 4th Audi he's gotten from them in the past 10-12 years.

They even send someone over to pick the car up at no charge when it needs service.

Did I mention that this guy is a surgeon and lives in a multi-million dollar home?

Anyway.... for normal dudes like myself, I've gotten way better service from BMW than from Audi.. but as previously mentioned I think quality of local dealer factors into this a lot. My local BMW dealer is phenomenal (probably one of the top dealers in the country definitely top in the state) whereas the Audi dealership sucks.

That Audi S5 sport back does look mighty purdy though.

 

[Sportstick]

Every day I go back and forth. It's likely to come down to where I can get the better deal on a car that I want. I've had a truly flawless experience over all with my 335, which makes me want to stay with what I know and have enjoyed. On the other hand, I (like granger) drove the new 2018 S4 and loved it. I also love Audi's interiors and tech (especially Virtual Cockpit). If I do lease, then I suppose that any issues with Audi service will be less of a concern for me (but still relevant).

Yes, my wife drove the 3.0 liter supercharged A6 Prestige and also fell in love with looks and performance. But, when electronic/tech stuff intermittently doesn't work, you hear "they all do that" about the trans, brake rotors fail (out of round warpage) early on and they deny warranty, they tell the tech to write up the RO to support their position denying warranty regardless of what actually was found....it really doesn't matter how much you like the car on test drive day anymore....even the 24 or 36 months of a lease can become painful...the memory of the "deal" is long gone when you wish you didn't have the car anymore.

 

[gambit48]

Yeah, I think the quality of local dealers is the majority of the customer service factor. In SoCal, there are tons of BMW dealers. I took my car to a bunch of them. There were DRASTIC differences between the dealers, even though they were all fairly close to one another. Basically, what could they get away with or what market they were mainly dealing with. Up where I am now, it's the same thing, just with less dealers but I still think it's affected greatly by how much the customers are willing to put up with. I find that Lexus is the brand that's more consistently concerned about really good service across the board.

 

[Zaphod]

Every day I go back and forth. It's likely to come down to where I can get the better deal on a car that I want. I've had a truly flawless experience over all with my 335, which makes me want to stay with what I know and have enjoyed. On the other hand, I (like granger) drove the new 2018 S4 and loved it. I also love Audi's interiors and tech (especially Virtual Cockpit). If I do lease, then I suppose that any issues with Audi service will be less of a concern for me (but still relevant).

Just be forewarned, that Audi leases on anything other than vanilla A3/A4/Q3/Q5 models are horrible. Pretty average residuals and high money factors do not make them very attractive. Unless you can do the lease for business purposes, probably better to buy than lease.

 

[Oil4AsphaultOnly]

I did say PMOI does contributes to the handling, but in my opinion the difference between the 3 and comparable cars in PMOI is not the significant factor driving the handling. The predominant trait contributing to the handling is the vertical CG.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing here.
1) You're saying that there's more of a difference between the model 3's CG versus comparable ICE CG's.
2) You're also saying that the PMOI difference is negligible, since they're so close together.
3) And thus you conclude that the CG difference is more important in affecting handling than the difference in PMOI between those same cars.

I do NOT disagree with 1, 2, & 3 together. But there's a 4th condition to keep in mind:
4) A large flat battery pack adds disperse mass that increases the PMOI of a BEV. That's why the model S does worse than the Porsche Panamera in the slalom.

So if it weren't for the battery pack redesign, you wouldn't have #2 to base your conclusion on. And being left with 1 & 4, #3 does NOT follow. That's why I disagree on the vertical CG being a more prominant trait. The model 3 brought PMOI parity where none existed before.

 

[WhiskySTL]

I have a friend with an A8 and the dealership treats him like royalty.... it probably helps that it's something like the 3rd or 4th Audi he's gotten from them in the past 10-12 years.

They even send someone over to pick the car up at no charge when it needs service.

Did I mention that this guy is a surgeon and lives in a multi-million dollar home?

Anyway.... for normal dudes like myself, I've gotten way better service from BMW than from Audi.. but as previously mentioned I think quality of local dealer factors into this a lot. My local BMW dealer is phenomenal (probably one of the top dealers in the country definitely top in the state) whereas the Audi dealership sucks.

That Audi S5 sport back does look mighty purdy though.

The S5 Sportback is what I really want. But although theoretically they're about the same price as the S4, in reality they are in short supply, the ones that are to be found are highly optioned, and the dealers aren't negotiating much on them... resulting in the S4 being available for significantly less.
:-/

Yes, my wife drove the 3.0 liter supercharged A6 Prestige and also fell in love with looks and performance. But, when electronic/tech stuff intermittently doesn't work, you hear "they all do that" about the trans, brake rotors fail (out of round warpage) early on and they deny warranty, they tell the tech to write up the RO to support their position denying warranty regardless of what actually was found....it really doesn't matter how much you like the car on test drive day anymore....even the 24 or 36 months of a lease can become painful...the memory of the "deal" is long gone when you wish you didn't have the car anymore.

Yikes. This may be why both Audi dealers I have visited were quick to trot out copies of a recent article (I forget which publication) ranking Audi as #1 in reliability. Also, one of them really tried to get me to give a 2017 A6 a shot because they are swimming in them and are negotiating on them hardcore, apparently because a redesign is coming.

Yeah, I think the quality of local dealers is the majority of the customer service factor. In SoCal, there are tons of BMW dealers. I took my car to a bunch of them. There were DRASTIC differences between the dealers, even though they were all fairly close to one another. Basically, what could they get away with or what market they were mainly dealing with. Up where I am now, it's the same thing, just with less dealers but I still think it's affected greatly by how much the customers are willing to put up with. I find that Lexus is the brand that's more consistently concerned about really good service across the board.

I agree. Luckily the BMW dealer about 3-4 miles from me is totally awesome. I once got tires at a different dealer, and they were not awesome... they'd run out of loaners so gave me a rental - a base Hyundai Elantra. (I didn't realize how spoiled I had become until I drove that car.) FFS, at least upgrade me to an Accord.

Just be forewarned, that Audi leases on anything other than vanilla A3/A4/Q3/Q5 models are horrible. Pretty average residuals and high money factors do not make them very attractive. Unless you can do the lease for business purposes, probably better to buy than lease.

I've heard this before, but I read recently that Audi has started inflating their residuals more to make leasing more attractive. I'll definitely need to compare the actual numbers, when it comes down to it.

The lease I was recently quoted on a 440 was disappointing compared with the payments for my current 335; I have heard that hatchbacks often do not hold their value as well for some reason, so I am guessing that may be why (??).

 

[voip-ninja]

The S5 Sportback is what I really want. But although theoretically they're about the same price as the S4, in reality they are in short supply, the ones that are to be found are highly optioned, and the dealers aren't negotiating much on them... resulting in the S4 being available for significantly less.
:-/


Yikes. This may be why both Audi dealers I have visited were quick to trot out copies of a recent article (I forget which publication) ranking Audi as #1 in reliability. Also, one of them really tried to get me to give a 2017 A6 a shot because they are swimming in them and are negotiating on them hardcore, apparently because a redesign is coming.


I agree. Luckily the BMW dealer about 3-4 miles from me is totally awesome. I once got tires at a different dealer, and they were not awesome... they'd run out of loaners so gave me a rental - a base Hyundai Elantra. (I didn't realize how spoiled I had become until I drove that car.) FFS, at least upgrade me to an Accord.


I've heard this before, but I read recently that Audi has started inflating their residuals more to make leasing more attractive. I'll definitely need to compare the actual numbers, when it comes down to it.

The lease I was recently quoted on a 440 was disappointing compared with the payments for my current 335; I have heard that hatchbacks often do not hold their value as well for some reason, so I am guessing that may be why (??).

In the BMW world, the "exotics"... meaning anything other than a four door sedan typically have worse residuals. Residuals on the M cars and certain other cars like the X6 are pretty bad because they are niche cars.

BMW heavily subsidizes leasing on their bread & butter 3 and 5 series but even on the 4 series (pretty much identical to 3 series) the residuals are lower.

If Audi is doing lease support that is new. They've never done it before. My two A4s were both purchased because leasing was not an attractive option.

 

[Zaphod]

You're arguing for the sake of arguing here.
1) You're saying that there's more of a difference between the model 3's CG versus comparable ICE CG's.
2) You're also saying that the PMOI difference is negligible, since they're so close together.
3) And thus you conclude that the CG difference is more important in affecting handling than the difference in PMOI between those same cars.

I do NOT disagree with 1, 2, & 3 together. But there's a 4th condition to keep in mind:
4) A large flat battery pack adds disperse mass that increases the PMOI of a BEV. That's why the model S does worse than the Porsche Panamera in the slalom.

So if it weren't for the battery pack redesign, you wouldn't have #2 to base your conclusion on. And being left with 1 & 4, #3 does NOT follow. That's why I disagree on the vertical CG being a more prominant trait. The model 3 brought PMOI parity where none existed before.

Not trying to be argumentative, I just think that reddit post was made by someone who thinks they know more than they do. They have the general science and concept down, but I believe has little to no merit to their conclusion. I am just highly skeptical of the PMOI impact on the handling. For example, when you are talking about highly engineered F1 cars that are lighweight, yes the PMOI will most likely have noticeable impact on handling. But on your everyday road cars that are significantly heavier, other factors will far outweigh the impact from PMOI in handling.

As far as comparing the S to Panamera in slalom, I don't see any indication that could point directly to PMOI difference coming into play. Wouldn't a V8 engine lump in the front and fuel tank in the back have just as comparable PMOI? There are multitudes of factors that could impact slalom time. The S is already 400-500 pounds heavier. Additional factors such as suspension design and geometry, sway bars, front/rear weight distribution, wheelbase, tire track width, tire size and compound, and probably others.

Battery pack redesign was done for more efficient packaging and manufacturing. I doubt there was conscious consideration to improve PMOI by reducing the pack length. It was just a beneficial outcome due to other design choices.

I guess we can agree to disagree. Regardless of what contributes to the handling, I'm just glad that the 3 will have good handling.

 

[run-the-joules]

The S5 Sportback is what I really want. But although theoretically they're about the same price as the S4, in reality they are in short supply, the ones that are to be found are highly optioned, and the dealers aren't negotiating much on them... resulting in the S4 being available for significantly less.
:-/

I encourage you to look into the European delivery financial benefits. You get the exact car you want and enough of a discount to cover a trip to Germany.

 

[THXULTRA]

I encourage you to look into the European delivery financial benefits. You get the exact car you want and enough of a discount to cover a trip to Germany.

How about shipping the car back? I would think that would be costly. Always wanted to do this though think it would be cool to get to drive your new car in Germany first.

 

[WhiskySTL]

I encourage you to look into the European delivery financial benefits. You get the exact car you want and enough of a discount to cover a trip to Germany.

Funny you mention this - a coworker was just telling me about this for BMW last week. He is already planning a trip to do this with his next BMW in the spring.

How about shipping the car back? I would think that would be costly. Always wanted to do this though think it would be cool to get to drive your new car in Germany first.

I have only heard details of the BMW offering, but I assume Audi's is roughly the same. In the case of a BMW, BMW still ships the car for you just as they would have for US delivery. The $$ you save (that's referenced by run-the-joules) is on the import tax -- because you accept delivery in Germany, when BMW ships the car, it is shipped as a used car rather than a new car... this significantly decreases the import tax ($2k-$4k of savings was the estimate my coworker mentioned; he has a 5 series).

Not only is this enough of a savings to potentially cover your airfare, but BMW will also insure the car for you in Europe for up to 2 weeks. So the overall experience goes something like this...

1. You work with a local dealer to configure and order the car you want.
2. You schedule your trip to Germany to take delivery of the car at the BMW plant.
3. At the BMW factory, you get a tour.
4. At the end of the day, they deliver your car to you in the factory.
5. You take a "victory lap" around their track at the BMW facility.
6. You drive off in your new car and enjoy up to 2 weeks driving around Germany/Europe, insured by BMW. (You pay for the hotels and bratwurst.)
7. At the end of your road trip, you return the car to one of several locations.
8. BMW ships the car to your dealer in the States, just as they would have for any custom order.

 

[voip-ninja]

Funny you mention this - a coworker was just telling me about this for BMW last week. He is already planning a trip to do this with his next BMW in the spring.


I have only heard details of the BMW offering, but I assume Audi's is roughly the same. In the case of a BMW, BMW still ships the car for you just as they would have for US delivery. The $$ you save (that's referenced by run-the-joules) is on the import tax -- because you accept delivery in Germany, when BMW ships the car, it is shipped as a used car rather than a new car... this significantly decreases the import tax ($2k-$4k of savings was the estimate my coworker mentioned; he has a 5 series).

Not only is this enough of a savings to potentially cover your airfare, but BMW will also insure the car for you in Europe for up to 2 weeks. So the overall experience goes something like this...

1. You work with a local dealer to configure and order the car you want.
2. You schedule your trip to Germany to take delivery of the car at the BMW plant.
3. At the BMW factory, you get a tour.
4. At the end of the day, they deliver your car to you in the factory.
5. You take a "victory lap" around their track at the BMW facility.
6. You drive off in your new car and enjoy up to 2 weeks driving around Germany/Europe, insured by BMW. (You pay for the hotels and bratwurst.)
7. At the end of your road trip, you return the car to one of several locations.
8. BMW ships the car to your dealer in the States, just as they would have for any custom order.

You've got it down. On a lease the savings are far less dramatic since you're only paying for 40% or so of the car over the term of the lease... but it's still usually enough to cover the airfare of going to Germany.

Some people take it to the extreme. Some guy took delivery of a 328i a few years ago where he literally bought the cheapest economy ticket he could, went from the airport to the Munich delivery center, took his car, drove it straight to the port, and then got on a plane and came back to the US. He said it took up 48 hours or so of his life but even after airfare it saved him $1500.

 

[sdugan99]

I decided to buy a Model S. My financial situation improved to allow me to consider the S. Decided Model 3 was too small for our needs. I never worried about having 1 screen, but after driving the S I really like the driver screen. Range of the 90D is great for me and is close enough the the LR3. I didn't want to wait till next summer at earliest. Free supercharging, full tax credit.

Few years from now will take another look at the 3 when time to replace my wifes car.

 

[ummgood]

Funny you mention this - a coworker was just telling me about this for BMW last week. He is already planning a trip to do this with his next BMW in the spring.


I have only heard details of the BMW offering, but I assume Audi's is roughly the same. In the case of a BMW, BMW still ships the car for you just as they would have for US delivery. The $$ you save (that's referenced by run-the-joules) is on the import tax -- because you accept delivery in Germany, when BMW ships the car, it is shipped as a used car rather than a new car... this significantly decreases the import tax ($2k-$4k of savings was the estimate my coworker mentioned; he has a 5 series).

Not only is this enough of a savings to potentially cover your airfare, but BMW will also insure the car for you in Europe for up to 2 weeks. So the overall experience goes something like this...

1. You work with a local dealer to configure and order the car you want.
2. You schedule your trip to Germany to take delivery of the car at the BMW plant.
3. At the BMW factory, you get a tour.
4. At the end of the day, they deliver your car to you in the factory.
5. You take a "victory lap" around their track at the BMW facility.
6. You drive off in your new car and enjoy up to 2 weeks driving around Germany/Europe, insured by BMW. (You pay for the hotels and bratwurst.)
7. At the end of your road trip, you return the car to one of several locations.
8. BMW ships the car to your dealer in the States, just as they would have for any custom order.

Also don't forget to go into the VW dealer parts department and buy some VW branded sausage while you are in Germany. Unfortunately the emissions in my hotel room after are pretty bad.

 

[Sportstick]

Also don't forget to go into the VW dealer parts department and buy some VW branded sausage while you are in Germany. Unfortunately the emissions in my hotel room after are pretty bad.

Just put yourself back in "test mode"....works perfectly with VW brand!